Podcast Show Notes

On The Indy Author Podcast, we discuss the writing craft, the publishing voyage, and how we can navigate our way to the readers who will love our books. Click the links below for the show notes for episodes since 200, including summaries and transcripts.

Matty Dalrymple 4/22/25 Matty Dalrymple 4/22/25

Episode 284 - Training the Brain for Fiction Dictation with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer

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Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer discusses TRAINING THE BRAIN FOR FICTION DICTATION, including the differences in approach for fiction versus nonfiction. Sarah describes the challenges authors face when transitioning to dictating fiction and offers practical advice for overcoming mental blocks. Sarah also highlights the flexibility of dictation, allowing authors to work in different environments and in shorter time blocks. And she discusses how dictation can improve other audio assets and can engage audiences in new ways.

Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer is an author and writing instructor who takes authors struggling to master the tools and knowledge of their author journey and helps them become confident in writing their books. She has been featured on Joanna Penn’s The Creative Penn podcast, Jane Friedman’s blog, Writer’s Digest magazine, and more. She’s published 19 books, 11 of which she wrote solely by dictation. Sarah is also host of The Confident Fiction Author podcast which empowers authors to live their best creative lifestyle. Her Fictation Digital Course takes authors through the exact process of mastering dictation to write fiction.

Episode Links

www.fictioncourses.com
https://www.facebook.com/fictioncourses
Explore Sarah's fiction dictation course via my affiliate link: https://theindyauthor--fictioncourses.thrivecart .com/fictation/

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer about the art of dictation for authors. Sarah, an established author and writing instructor, emphasizes the distinct skills required for dictating fiction versus nonfiction. She shares insights for authors looking to delve into dictation or improve their current practices, highlighting practical tips and overcoming mental barriers associated with this method.

Sarah explains that many authors are used to dictating emails or text messages but find themselves struggling when transitioning to dictating fiction. The mental shift involves creating new neural pathways, which she describes as a different skill set from nonfiction dictation. Authors must train their minds to verbalize fictional characters and worlds, which can initially seem daunting. Sarah recounts her own journey of overcoming these barriers and the eventual success and confidence she gained from becoming adept in dictating fiction.

For those getting started, Sarah advises joining communities of authors who are mastering dictation, reading published fiction out loud to practice using dictation technology, and vocalizing punctuation to improve accuracy. Practicing speaking one's fiction out loud allows authors to become accustomed to hearing their own voices telling the story, which can help bridge the gap to full-fledged dictation. She reassures authors that while moving from typing to dictating might be gradual, it's possible to become as comfortable with dictating as they are with typing.

Matty raises a point about storytelling speed, noting that many authors pursue dictation to capture thoughts faster than typing allows. In response, Sarah shares how dictation can benefit authors beyond speed, such as accommodating health issues or offering flexibility to dictate in various environments like walking or doing household chores.

The discussion also delves into technological solutions for dictation. Matty expresses a desire for voice-activated recording when driving or walking, which would enhance hands-free dictation. While Sarah has yet to find a perfect app, she suggests setups where phones are mounted for safe hands-free operation and encourages experimentation with different tools and approaches.

For Sarah, the editing phase after dictation involves a crucial cleanup step where potential transcription errors are addressed, ensuring the draft is as clean as a typical typed one. This process allows authors to focus on storytelling without being hindered by transcription inaccuracies during subsequent editing.

Sarah also touches on preserving author voice in dictated works, sharing that her oral storytelling background contributed greatly to maintaining her distinct style. Authors looking to safeguard their voice might consider storytelling practices, such as engaging with live audiences or recording narrative videos, to integrate oral storytelling into their writing habits.

For those already experienced in dictation, Sarah suggests trying new methods or tools to enhance efficiency and enjoyment. Exploring various environments and embracing new technologies can refresh the dictation experience, making writing more dynamic and productive.

The episode concludes with Sarah providing resources for authors interested in dictation, including a quick start guide and a comprehensive training bootcamp via her website. These resources aim to help authors at any stage of their dictation journey discover a smoother, more efficient writing process.

In summary, Matty and Sarah's conversation sheds light on dictation as a valuable tool for authors. By addressing mental barriers, exploring technological options, and providing actionable advice, they offer insights into how authors can incorporate dictation into their creative processes, improving not just speed but overall storytelling flexibility and health.

Matty Dalrymple 2/4/25 Matty Dalrymple 2/4/25

Episode 273 - Showrunning Your Series Novels with Cheryl McKay

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Cheryl McKay discusses SHOWRUNNING YOUR SERIES NOVELS, including how to plan for standalone versus series formats; the role of episodic elements; the benefits of feeling inspired by and using real-world locations in storytelling; the importance of character development and story arcs; and the importance of making strong standalone stories with potential for growth or spinoffs. We also discuss the responsibilities of a showrunner and how this role parallels the varied duties of an indie author.

CHERYL MCKAY been professionally writing since 1997. Before creating, showrunning, and executive producing the multi-award-winning Season One of These Stones, Cheryl wrote the screenplay for The Ultimate Gift. Cheryl co-wrote the faith-based feature films, Indivisible and Extraordinary, as well as multiple children’s projects, including five episodes of Superbook and forty episodes of the audio drama, The Wild & Wacky Totally True Bible Stories with Frank Peretti. In addition to film and television, Cheryl has enjoyed penning novels like Song of Springhill and the award-winning Never the Bride (with Rene Gutteridge), as well as nonfiction books.

Episode Links

www.purplepenworks.com
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100027726262011
https://www.instagram.com/cherylmckayscreenwriter/
https://www.youtube.com/@thesestones

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Cheryl McKay about the valuable lessons series novelists can draw from TV series. The conversation delves into structuring series narratives, incorporating cliffhangers, and planning for both standalone and ongoing stories.

Matty opens the discussion by highlighting the initial challenge for authors deciding between writing a standalone book or a series. Speaking from her experience, Cheryl notes that this dilemma is paralleled in the screenwriting world, where screenwriters often face the decision of whether their work fits better as a standalone movie or an expanding series. Cheryl shares an anecdote about transforming her screenplay, "Never the Bride," initially intended as a standalone, into a series. She draws a parallel to the "Bruce Almighty" series, where a strong character in the first movie inspired the subsequent "Evan Almighty."

Cheryl emphasizes the importance of planning for character and story arcs that can expand beyond the first instance of work. She suggests series writers consider ongoing character development and multiple storylines that can extend through several books or episodes. Cheryl’s insights highlight how detailed planning, like creating a "show bible," is crucial in ensuring consistency and depth in storytelling. This planning aids in setting rules for the world, creating characters with scalable arcs, and contemplating potential storylines.

Matty and Cheryl explore the concept of resolving narratives versus leaving doors open for future installments. Cheryl explains the strategic balance between offering enough closure in a story to satisfy the audience while leaving threads that entice them to come back for more. They discuss the fact that readers are often wary of starting an unfinished series, emphasizing the need for authors to ensure that their first book is strong enough to stand alone while setting up potential sequels.

Cheryl also underscores the differing freedoms and constraints faced by indie authors versus screenwriters in traditional TV. Where screenwriters often hand over control post-script and might face rushed story completions due to network decisions, indie authors generally maintain creative control, deciding the length and arcs of their series based on interest and sales. This leads to a discussion of audience influence on storytelling. Matty mentions how direct feedback from readers allows indie authors to adjust future installments, a luxury less available to screenwriters.

The role of guest characters in series is another area of discussion. Cheryl explains how "guest stars" can enrich TV shows and novels alike, offering fresh stories and conflicts. These characters may appear in specific episodes or books but can evolve into recurring roles or even inspire spin-offs. Cheryl illustrates this with an example of a crime series writer whose secondary characters or unique professions may spawn their own narratives.

Exploring spin-offs, Cheryl suggests leveraging interesting side characters to explore new stories, much like the transition from "Bruce Almighty" to "Evan Almighty." The adaptation of characters into different tones or genres can attract different audiences, though maintaining the original's spirit can be challenging. Cheryl remarks that changing a story's tone, as seen in "Evan Almighty," can surprise audiences, and creators should tread carefully when altering the formula of a beloved concept.

The conversation wraps up with insights into the multifaceted role of a showrunner in TV production, akin to an indie author’s balancing act of writing, marketing, and overseeing book production. Cheryl describes how a showrunner manages the creative vision, casting, and logistics, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and communication akin to an indie author's need to manage various aspects of book publication.

Matty draws parallels between a showrunner’s operational overview and an indie author's need to manage the entire writing-to-publishing process, encouraging authors to take a holistic approach to their craft. Cheryl’s experiences highlight the similarities between TV production and indie publishing, offering authors insights into effectively managing their series and maintaining engagement with their audience.

Matty Dalrymple 1/28/25 Matty Dalrymple 1/28/25

Episode 272 - The Evolving Author and Second Editions with Joanna Penn

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Joanna Penn discusses THE EVOLVING AUTHOR AND SECOND EDITIONS, including the release of the second edition of Joanna's book, HOW TO WRITE NON-FICTION. Joanna discusses the changes in nonfiction writing, including the importance of storytelling, which led her to apply some of the personal elements and insights she has used in her memoir works into this new edition. We delve into the challenges and benefits of putting out a new edition versus updating the existing one, the evolving landscape of self-publishing, and the impact of new technologies on the writing business.

Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster of The Creative Penn Podcast, a creative entrepreneur, and an international professional speaker.

Episode Links

www.TheCreativePenn.com
https://x.com/thecreativepenn
Episode 054 - Futurist Trends We Can Prepare for Now with Joanna Penn

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Joanna Penn about the evolution of Joanna’s book, "How to Write Nonfiction," as it moves into its second edition. They delve into the shifts in nonfiction writing, driven by both personal growth and technological changes.

Joanna highlights how the personal touch in nonfiction writing has become more critical as AI can generate standard content. She shares that her own experiences, particularly writing a memoir, have significantly altered her approach to nonfiction. This emphasizes the need for personal stories and emotions in nonfiction, transforming it into a more humanized and relatable genre.

The conversation uncovers the restructuring of Joanna's book, including the blending of topics like publishing, marketing, and business into a cohesive unit. This decision reflects changes in the publishing landscape and her own creative evolution, moving towards a more evergreen approach.

Matty and Joanna discuss the pros and cons of revising existing books versus writing new content. Joanna points out the critical balance between updating books for factual correctness and maintaining voice authenticity. She says that a new edition can sometimes feel like an entirely different book, requiring new ISBNs and marketing strategies. However, she acknowledges that it's essential for such revisions to represent genuine shifts in perspective or content to be worthwhile.

In aligning with the theme of nonfiction's evolution, Joanna and Matty explore the role of storytelling in nonfiction writing, such as the incorporation of personal anecdotes and experiences. Joanna stresses the importance of this blending of factual writing with personal narrative to ensure nonfiction books remain engaging amidst the rise of AI-generated content.

Another significant discussion point is the future of audiobooks and AI. Joanna covers how AI could revolutionize audiobook production, making it more accessible and diverse in language and accent. This innovation could significantly lower costs and broaden market reach for authors, enabling them to share their work without language barriers. Matty adds to this by discussing her aspirations to use AI-generated voices trained on her own, providing a consistent and customized reading experience across different languages and works.

Throughout the episode, Matty and Joanna also touch upon the shifting landscape of author platforms and content. They consider the evolving utility of platforms like Medium and Substack and the enduring value of owning one’s platform. This discussion brings forth the idea of not building on rented land and the safety of keeping control over content and audience interaction.

Joanna shares her stance on various publishing formats, emphasizing selling directly to readers as a more lucrative and controlled option for authors. This ties into the broader theme of how technological shifts are impacting author strategies and book marketing efforts.

Matty Dalrymple 1/14/25 Matty Dalrymple 1/14/25

Episode 271 - Tapping into Your Author Voice with Tiffany Yates Martin

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Tiffany Yates Martin discusses TAPPING INTO YOUR AUTHOR VOICE, including how many writers mistakenly view voice as an external element they need to find or impose on their work. Instead, she believes that true voice comes from genuinely accessing and expressing one's internal truths, a process that can feel quite daunting. Tiffany emphasizes that an authentic voice is not about adopting a façade but rather about tapping into what is true to the author and allowing it to emerge naturally in their writing.

Tiffany Yates Martin has spent nearly thirty years as an editor in the publishing industry, working with major publishers and New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today bestselling and award-winning authors as well as indie and newer writers. She is the founder of FoxPrint Editorial (named one of Writer’s Digest’s Best Websites for Authors) and author of Intuitive Editing: A Creative and Practical Guide to Revising Your Writing and the recently released The Intuitive Author: How to Grow & Sustain a Happier Writing Career. She is a regular contributor to writers’ outlets like Writer’s Digest, Jane Friedman, and Writer Unboxed, and a frequent presenter and keynote speaker for writers’ organizations around the country. Under her pen name, Phoebe Fox, she is the author of six novels.

Episode Links

https://www.foxprinteditorial.com
https://www.instagram.com/tiffanyyatesmartin/
https://www.facebook.com/tiffanynyates/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-TMebXV5sg8-fQkVeg_0w

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Tiffany Yates Martin about the concept of "voice" in writing and how authors can authentically express their unique perspectives. Tiffany challenges the common perception among authors that voice is something external—a façade to be layered over their work. Instead, she proposes that true voice emerges when writers draw from within themselves, accessing their internal truths and allowing these to infuse their narratives.

One of the primary topics Tiffany tackles is the misconception that voice needs to be consciously tacked onto a piece of writing. She believes this approach can hinder creativity and authenticity. Voice, according to Tiffany, should not be imposed but instead arise naturally from the writer's own experiences, emotions, and perspectives. This process of letting one's true voice guide the writing can be intimidating for many authors, as it requires vulnerability and honesty. It’s about stripping away the layers of pretense and showing raw, genuine aspects of oneself.

Throughout the episode, Tiffany emphasizes the importance of embracing one's individuality in writing. By doing so, writers can create more compelling and relatable stories that resonate with readers on a deeper level. This inward search for authenticity not only enhances the quality of the work but also connects more powerfully with the audience.

In support of her insights, Tiffany shares key examples and strategies that authors can use to discover and refine their voice. While the process can be challenging, it is ultimately rewarding, leading to a more fulfilling writing experience and richer, more authentic stories.

The discussion offers valuable takeaways for writers at any stage in their careers. It encourages them to reflect on their personal truths and how these can be a wellspring of creative material. By courageously accessing and expressing their inner selves, authors can develop a distinctive voice that stands out in the literary world.

Matty Dalrymple 12/17/24 Matty Dalrymple 12/17/24

Episode 268 - What Authors Should Not Learn from Movies with Rene Gutteridge

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Rene Gutteridge discusses WHAT AUTHORS SHOULD NOT LEARN FROM MOVIES, including
how crucial point of view and inner monologue are in novel writing compared to the visual storytelling required in movies; how writers can mistakenly adopt a 'director's' approach, leading to overly descriptive and less engaging prose; and delve the science behind the different brain functions of hobbyist writers versus professional authors. We touch on how conciseness in movies contrasts with the depth needed in novels, using examples like Dennis Lehane’s MYSTIC RIVER, and discuss practical strategies for maintaining engaging pacing in fiction without losing substance.

Rene Gutteridge is the multi-genre author of 24 novels plus several non-fiction titles. Her indie film SKID won deadCenter’s Best Oklahoma Feature in 2015, and her novel MY LIFE AS A DOORMAT was adapted into the Hallmark movie LOVE’S COMPLICATED. She is co-writer on the feature film FAMILY CAMP, a Movieguide award winner and a Dove Award nominee for 2023. She is also a Screencraft finalist in true crime. Rene is co-director of WriterCon in Oklahoma City, senior contributor at Writing Momentum, and the head writer at Skit Guys Studios.

Episode Links

https://www.renegutteridge.com
https://www.facebook.com/ReneGutteridgeAuthor
Episode 253 - Navigating the Worlds of Fiction and Film with Rene Gutteridge

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with returning guest Rene Gutteridge about the intricate relationship between writing fiction and the art of filmmaking, and how writers can effectively leverage these insights. The conversation delves deep into the various differences between storytelling in novels and films, and what authors can potentially learn—or, crucially, avoid learning—from movies when crafting their stories.

Rene discusses the tendency of writers to “direct” characters in novels as they might in a film. She advises against this, emphasizing that writing should not merely mimic movies because, while films focus more on what can be visually and briskly presented, novel writing thrives in its ability to explore the inner thoughts and perceptions of characters. She highlights a key point: “If you could take that chapter and go set up a movie camera and film it as is, you're not nailing it.” Rene shares an example of “directing” a character unnecessarily by describing mundane actions like making coffee without adding emotional or motivational subtext.

A notable aspect of their discussion is the scientific study Rene cites, comparing the brain activities of new versus professional writers when they write. The study found that experienced writers activated the speech part of the brain, emphasizing writing from a character’s internal point of view rather than an external, visual one. This distinction helps inform Rene’s belief that writing, even in third person, should delve deeply into a character’s psyche to resonate with readers on a more profound level.

In discussing the challenges and methods of effectively writing in deep point of view, Rene illustrates how characters perceive the world based on past experiences, profession, age, and other factors. She explains how these elements layer to form a character's perspective, providing depth that cannot be fully captured by the visual-centric storytelling of movies.

Matty and Rene also explore the structural dynamics between first-person and third-person narration. They discuss how each style affects the depth of storytelling and how to experiment with these narrative structures to enhance a story. Rene shares her own challenges with first-person narration, indicating that while it can produce compelling characters, it is often more challenging and less flexible than third-person narration.

Rene dives into the pitfalls of adapting novels into screenplays, highlighting the complications of translating intricate inner dialogues and background details into visual scenes. They touch on the example of Clint Eastwood's adaptation of “Mystic River” as an illustration of how films condense what novels elaborate, sometimes sacrificing depth for pacing.

Rene provides thoughtful insights into how characters can hold their own through compelling voices, regardless of the point-of-view choice. They delve into how authors can learn from cinematic techniques in terms of pacing and economy while ensuring these methods serve rather than hinder the depth and relatability of the written word.

In concluding the episode, both Matty and Rene reflect on the crucial aspect of intentionality in writing. Everything on the page should intentionally contribute to character development and plot progression—that's how readers become invested.

Matty Dalrymple 12/10/24 Matty Dalrymple 12/10/24

Episode 267 - Using Romance to Write Stories with Heart with Jennifer Probst

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Jennifer Probst discusses USING ROMANCE TO WRITE STORIES WITH HEART, including the importance of emotional depth, character growth arcs, and the role of secondary characters in enhancing romantic storylines. Jennifer emphasizes the need for sexual tension and matching the type of romance with different characters to create compelling narratives. She also dives into techniques for balancing varying levels of romantic steam in different genres, the importance of human connection, and the subtleties of using vulnerabilities in characters to enrich stories.

Jennifer Probst wrote her first book at twelve years old. She bound it in a folder, read it to her classmates, and hasn’t stopped writing since. She holds a masters in English Literature and lives in the beautiful Hudson Valley in upstate New York. She is the New York Times, USA Today, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of over fifty books in contemporary romance fiction. She was thrilled her book, The Marriage Bargain, spent 26 weeks on the New York Times. Her work has been translated in over a dozen countries, sold over a million copies, and was dubbed a “romance phenom” by Kirkus Reviews.

Episode Links

https://www.jenniferprobst.com
https://www.tiktok.com/@authorjenniferprobst
https://www.instagram.com/authorjenniferprobst/
https://www.facebook.com/jenniferprobst.authorpage

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with bestselling author Jennifer Probst about effectively incorporating romance into your writing. The conversation provides valuable insights into how authors can integrate love stories into their narratives, regardless of genre, enhancing the depth and engagement of their characters and plots.

Understanding Romance and Spectrum

Matty opens the discussion by distinguishing between romance's different levels, from sweet to steamy. Jennifer emphasizes that the "steam level" depends entirely on the story's needs and target audience, highlighting her experience writing across different niches and heat levels. In her words, "a romance is a happy ever after ending, between two characters," but it can also encompass broader love stories, from romantic suspense to relationships with pets.

Using Emotion to Drive Connection

Jennifer discusses the critical role of emotion in storytelling, whether it's navigating grief, love, or fear. For her, developing authentic characters with whom readers can empathize is essential. She states, "Emotion is one of the most important things in a story because...you feel a connection." This human connection is what keeps readers engaged, as they root for characters' growth and emotional journeys.

Secondary Characters: Adding Depth to Romance

Secondary characters can enrich a story by offering contrast, humor, or different kinds of relationships. Jennifer shares anecdotes about unexpected secondary characters who have captivated her readers' and her own imaginations, citing examples of a grumpy neighbor or a challenging animal who becomes a beloved friend. These characters can add vibrancy and unexpected layers to the main narrative, creating opportunities for secondary romances or other forms of love.

The Art of Sensual Tension

Building suspense in romance, whether through witty banter or unresolved attraction, is a favorite tool for Jennifer. By creating scenarios of will-they-or-won't-they, writers can maintain reader interest throughout a narrative. She describes scenarios from friends to lovers and forced proximity as rich grounds for romance, offering examples from classic TV shows like "Moonlighting" and "Friends" where the tension between characters was central to the audience's engagement.

Growth Arcs: Essential for Character Development

Jennifer stresses the importance of growth arcs for both the individual characters and their relationships. She outlines how a well-constructed arc involves characters changing from their introduction to the story’s conclusion, highlighting the significance of characters overcoming personal struggles and achieving growth. This development adds depth to romance narratives and ensures satisfying conclusions for readers.

Matching the Romance to the Characters

Finally, Jennifer talks about how the type and style of romance should align with her characters’ personalities. Characters often dictate the level of romance in her stories, from the edgy romances of rough-around-the-edges heroes to sweeter, simpler tales of bakers and small-town characters. She advises authors to remain sensitive to how their characters evolve, allowing authentic and convincing romantic dynamics to unfold naturally in the narrative.

Conclusion: Tailoring Romance to Enhance Your Story

In this podcast episode, Matty Dalrymple and Jennifer Probst delve into the intricacies of writing romance that resonates with readers. They explore how emotion, character development, and thoughtfully crafted romance arcs can make narratives more compelling and relatable. Authors are encouraged to let character personalities guide the romantic elements of their stories while ensuring reader expectations are met regarding tone and content.

Matty Dalrymple 12/3/24 Matty Dalrymple 12/3/24

Episode 266 - Timeless Storytelling Principles with Douglas Vigliotti

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Douglas Vigliotti discusses TIMELESS STORYTELLING PRINCIPLES, including the significance of consistency, reversals, and recognitions in novels, drawing parallels to mediums like film. Doug explores the role of believability and logic in creating compelling stories and reflects on the impact of marketing pressures on current narratives. He also discusses the cyclical nature of transgressive art.

Douglas Vigliotti is the author of four books, including ARISTOTLE FOR NOVELISTS and TOM COLLINS: A ‘SLIGHTLY CROOKED’ NOVEL, which is available to listen to on SLIGHTLY CROOKED: GOOD STORIES,TOLD WELL, a podcast that also features his raw and unorthodox poem collection MINI HEARTBREAKS (OR, LITTLE POEMS ABOUT LIFE). He is also the host of BOOKS FOR MEN, a weekly podcast to inspire (more) men to read. He lives in New Haven, Connecticut.

Episode Links

https://douglasvigliotti.com/
https://www.instagram.com/douglasvigliotti/

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Douglas Vigliotti about his book "Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story." The discussion delves into Aristotle's enduring influence on storytelling and how these ancient principles can guide contemporary novelists in crafting compelling narratives.

Douglas Vigliotti explains his journey from writing nonfiction to fiction and why he turned to Aristotle's "Poetics" to enhance his storytelling skills. He recounts how he identified that understanding story and character development was pivotal in moving from writing to truly connecting with readers.

One major theme explored is the principle of consistency in novels. Douglas emphasizes that consistency doesn't mean each chapter should mirror the next, but rather that the style, structure, and character portrayal remain coherent throughout. This, he believes, is fundamental to maintaining a reader's engagement and ensuring the story's integrity. He illustrates this with examples from literature and screenwriting, noting how differing styles or even disruptive styles can work—as long as they're executed consistently.

The podcast also tackles the principle of "show, don't tell," crucial advice for writers. Douglas reflects on storytelling as an imitation of action, a concept rooted in Aristotle's belief in learning through imitation. He argues that action reveals more than words, both in life and in storytelling. A character's journey and growth are fully realized through their deeds, not just their dialogue or thoughts.

Matty and Douglas also explore the cyclical nature of art and how transgressive works, like those from the era of "Fight Club," are less common today due to external pressures and censorship. Yet Douglas remains positive that art will push boundaries again, as this cyclical nature tends to repeat itself.

The principle of logic and believability in storytelling is dissected further. Douglas discusses the chain of causality and how a story should unfold through a logical sequence of cause and effect. Believability is paramount, he argues, for a narrative's success, no matter if it’s within a fantastical or realistic setting. Adhering to the world and rules that writers create is essential for maintaining a reader's trust and interest.

The conversation turns toward techniques of storytelling efficiency often showcased in films. Douglas praises films for their lean and essential structure, which can serve as a model for novelists aiming to cut extraneous content and focus on the core plot and character development. He draws on examples like "Mystic River," successfully translated from page to screen by focusing on the essence of the narrative.

Additionally, reversals and recognitions are discussed as essential elements of a complex plot. Douglas emphasizes that these should emerge from the story itself, not external forces, echoing Aristotle's disdain for deus ex machina resolutions. These reversals keep readers engaged with unexpected developments that are, nonetheless, rooted in the story's logic.

Finally, the discussion wraps up with a consideration of art as a reflection of its time. Matty and Douglas agree that older works should be viewed through the lens of their era, embracing the social mores of their time rather than altering them to fit modern standards.

For listeners who are novelists or storytellers, Douglas leaves them with an invitation to further explore Aristotle's principles by visiting a dedicated website and taking an assessment to see how their stories align with these timeless guidelines. He encourages writers to remain true to their unique voices while leveraging the structural wisdom handed down through centuries of storytelling craft.

This episode of The Indy Author Podcast offers valuable insights into how Aristotle's time-tested storytelling principles can enhance modern novel writing. Whether you’re revisiting the classics or writing your next big story, maintaining consistency, highlighting action over dialogue, and ensuring a logical flow make for compelling narratives that resonate with readers.

Matty Dalrymple 11/5/24 Matty Dalrymple 11/5/24

Episode 263 - Collaborate and Create with Michael La Ronn

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Michael La Ronn discusses COLLABORATE AND CREATE, including the intricacies of collaborative writing, and the importance of formal agreements when co-authoring a book. Michael highlights the necessity of having clear contracts to avoid misunderstandings and ensure smooth transitions in case one collaborator is unable to continue. They delve into practical writing tools like Google Docs and Microsoft Word, and discuss strategies for managing long-term collaborations, including effective marketing and promotional efforts. Emphasizing professionalism, clear communication, and adaptability, they share insights on leveraging each collaborator's strengths, assigning tasks based on expertise, and navigating the logistical challenges of joint promotional activities. The episode underscores the value of initial agreements, shared philosophies, and the application of organizational tools for successful collaboration.

Michael La Ronn has published many science fiction & fantasy books and self-help books for writers. He built a writing career publishing 10-12 books per year while raising a family, working a full-time job, and even attending law school classes in the evenings. Visit his fiction website at www.michaellaronn.com and his resources for writers at www.authorlevelup.com.

Episode Links

https://www.authorlevelup.com
https://www.youtube.com/authorlevelup

Companion Episodes:
Episode 261 - Navigating Collaborative Storytelling with Todd Fahnestock (on collaboration on fiction)

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Michael La Ronn about the intricacies of co-authoring a book, drawing from their personal experiences collaborating on "From Page to Platform: How to Succeed as an Author Speaker." The discussion is a deep dive into the collaborative process, exploring everything from initial agreements to writing, editing, marketing, and distribution strategies.

The podcast underscores the importance of formal agreements when beginning a co-authoring project. Michael stresses that having a written contract keeps everyone honest and organized. The contract should cover critical aspects like royalty splits and decision-making authority–who has the final say if disagreements arise. Matty adds that these agreements prevent confusion over time, as co-authoring projects can stretch over years.

With the contract in place, the next step is coordinating the writing process. Both Matty and Michael found the process of selecting tools for collaboration surprisingly challenging. They experimented with Google Docs and Microsoft Word before deciding on a more effective method. They recommend creating independent drafts that funnel into one person for assembly, reducing repetitive content and improving efficiency. Matty uses the analogy of "digging the clay out of the sand" to describe this stage, emphasizing how essential it is for collaborators to continuously communicate and adjust.

The conversation shifts to discuss logistics, a critical element of maintaining a smooth workflow in co-authoring. Matty and Michael liken their method to airplane pilots passing control to one another. They emphasize using project management tools like Trello for task tracking and coordination, noting its usefulness in maintaining a centralized repository of project-related information.

In discussing marketing and distribution, Matty highlights their initial plan to use Draft2Digital for its royalty-splitting capabilities, but the ultimate decision to switch to distributing direct on Amazon because of discrepancies between the D2D and Amazon requirements regarding royalty levels and the additional management and promotional levers that managing Amazon books directly on KDP offer. They learned the importance of staying flexible and adapting their strategies as necessary.

The duo explores how each author's marketing strategies can diverge while still supporting the same project goals. Michael points out that both authors can bring their audiences to the new work, even if it means using different platforms or marketing strategies. They agree that it's vital to pull "in the same direction" to maximize the book's reach.

Matty and Michael also delve into the complexities of joint promotional appearances. While fun, these can be logistically challenging. They agree it's often more practical to appear individually, coordinating efforts to ensure consistent messaging.

The podcast concludes with reflections on their journey. Michael acknowledges that the chemistry between them made the collaboration smoother, while Matty appreciates the efficiency they have gained through consistent processes. They contemplate simplifying future projects by focusing on well-defined scopes, as they had with their current collaboration, limited to non-fiction topics.

In summary, Matty and Michael offer a comprehensive overview of their co-authoring experience, providing invaluable insights for anyone considering a similar partnership. They discuss tools, techniques, and philosophies that can help aspiring collaborators anticipate and overcome potential challenges, ensuring a project that not only succeeds but thrives.

Matty Dalrymple 10/22/24 Matty Dalrymple 10/22/24

Episode 261 - Navigating Collaborative Storytelling with Todd Fahnestock

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Todd Fahnestock discusses NAVIGATING COLLABORATIVE STORYTELLING, including the intricacies and benefits of collaborative writing, the flexibility required for successful collaborations, the dynamics of sharing creative control, and the emotional impact when projects don't meet expectations. He details the guidelines his collaborators in the ELDROS LEGACY series established to maintain world consistency, and the importance of a “just say yes” approach to foster creativity.

Todd Fahnestock is an award-winning, #1 bestselling author of fantasy for all ages and winner of the New York Public Library’s Books for the Teen Age Award. Threadweavers and The Whisper Prince Trilogy are two of his bestselling epic fantasy series. He is a founder of Eldros Legacy—a multi-author, shared-world mega-epic fantasy series—three-time winner of the Colorado Authors League Award for Writing Excellence, and two-time finalist for the Colorado Book Award for Tower of the Four: The Champions Academy (2021) and Khyven the Unkillable (2022). His passions are great stories and his quirky, fun-loving family. When he’s not writing, he travels the country meeting fans, gets inundated with befuddling TikTok videos by his son, plays board games with his wife, plots future stories with his daughter, and plays vigorously with Galahad the Weimaraner.

Episode Links

https://toddfahnestock.com/
https://www.facebook.com/todd.fahnestock
https://www.youtube.com/@toddfahnestock7108?app=desktop
Episode 224 - Secrets of Maximizing In-person Sales with Todd Fahnestock

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Todd Fahnestock about various aspects of collaboration within the literary world. Todd, an award-winning, bestselling author of fantasy, shares insights from his experiences with both successful and challenging collaborations throughout his career.

Todd describes his early experiences of collaboration beginning in high school while role-playing with friends, which inspired his initial writing projects. He recounts an incomplete early project that was purely for fun and stopped due to their commitment-free approach. This transitions into discussing his first significant collaboration on "The Hearthstone Trilogy" with Giles Carwin, which was picked up by HarperCollins. Todd explains how the duo initially thrived on shared creativity, likening it to playing Dungeons and Dragons with a best friend. However, as they moved into subsequent drafts, conflicts emerged over creative decisions leading to stressful discussions. Despite their effort, the trilogy did not meet sales expectations and was dropped by the publisher, a pivotal moment Todd refers to as "falling to fly."

Matty then inquires about Todd’s reflections on whether the outcome would have been different if the work had been a commercial success. Todd speculates that success might not have alleviated the underlying tensions but rather exacerbated them. He philosophizes that success often magnifies existing problems rather than solving them and considers it possibly a blessing that their project did not lock them into a strained professional relationship.

The discussion moves onto Todd’s subsequent collaboration, "Eldros Legacy," a multi-author shared-world project. The collaboration includes authors working semi-independently on their respective continents but following a unified world’s rulebook. Todd emphasizes the benefits of collaboration, such as creating richer, more detailed worlds and contributing unique perspectives, while also acknowledging the challenges, such as coordinating visions and resolving disputes.

Matty explores the logistics behind managing such a large-scale collaboration. Todd elaborates on the multi-faceted roles of leading authors, who maintain creative autonomy over their continents while contributing to a synchronized world-building effort. Todd talks about the detailed world bible that outlines rules for magic and historical timelines, ensuring consistency across all authors' works. He describes the flexible structure allowing authors to either deeply integrate or minimally involve their stories with the overarching plot.

Addressing promotional strategies, Todd states that while they conducted joint activities initially, the group has become more individualized, although ready to collaborate on promotional efforts when needed again. Matty then discusses the flexibility inherent in handling the workload and creativity, which Todd agrees is crucial. They reflect on how rigid plans didn’t work, leading to a structure where authors are in charge of their continents, providing a balance between coordination and creative freedom.

The conversation also touches on Todd's interaction with cohort authors, who are not founding members but write within the Eldros world. He describes how this arrangement provides opportunities for broader storytelling while maintaining quality and coherence through oversight from continent leaders. Todd illustrates how new authors must submit writing samples and adhere to established world rules. He also discusses cover design coordination to ensure brand consistency while allowing artistic diversity.

Matty wraps up by mentioning her upcoming conversation with Michael La Ronn about co-authoring nonfiction, noting the significant differences in collaboration between fiction and nonfiction projects. She considers the idea of co-authoring a fiction piece with Michael to write about co-authoring fiction next.

Todd concludes by directing listeners to his website, ToddFahnestock.com, for more information and mentions his frequent appearances at conventions.

This podcast episode offers an in-depth look at literary collaboration, highlighting the balance of creative freedom, structural coordination, and the influence of success and failure. Todd’s insights provide valuable lessons for authors considering or engaged in collaborative projects.

Matty Dalrymple 8/27/24 Matty Dalrymple 8/27/24

Episode 253 - Navigating the Worlds of Fiction and Film with Rene Gutteridge

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Rene Gutteridge discusses NAVIGATING THE WORLDS OF FICTION AND FILM, including the nuances and intricacies involved in transitioning from writing novels to screenplays, the technical constraints in screenwriting, the necessity of collaboration in film, and the importance of adhering to a rigid structure. Rene also covers how understanding screenplay techniques can benefit novelists, particularly in terms of pacing and scene structure. She offers insights for novelists considering a venture into screenwriting, emphasizing the innate differences in storytelling approaches.

Rene Gutteridge has been writing professionally for over twenty years in fiction, non-fiction, comedy sketches, novelizations, and screenwriting. She is the multi-genre author of 24 novels plus several non-fiction titles. Her indie film SKID won deadCenter’s Best Oklahoma Feature in 2015, and her novel My Life as a Doormat was adapted into the Hallmark movie “Love’s Complicated.” She is co-writer on the feature film Family Camp, a Movieguide award winner and a Dove Award nominee for 2023. She is also a Screencraft finalist in true crime. Rene is co-director of WriterCon in Oklahoma City, senior contributor at Writing Momentum and is the head writer at Skit Guys Studios.

Episode Links

https://www.facebook.com/ReneGutteridgeAuthor
https://www.instagram.com/rene_gutteridge/
https://x.com/ReneGutteridge

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Rene Gutteridge about the intricate world of screenwriting and how it compares to novel writing. Their conversation delves into the specifics of each medium, offering valuable insights for authors who might be contemplating a shift into screenwriting or simply looking to enhance their novel writing.

Transitioning from Novels to Screenplays

Rene starts by discussing her journey from screenwriting to novel writing and back. She began as a reader of screenplays during her high school years, influenced by her mother's dedication to encouraging her reading habits. Eventually, her early fascination with screenplays led her to write her own. Despite studying screenwriting in college, Rene shifted to novel writing due to the lack of a film scene in Oklahoma at the time.

Rene notes the significant differences between novels and screenplays, particularly the collaborative nature of screenwriting. While screenwriters plant the vision of the story, much of the creative process, including acting, direction, and set design, is handled by other team members. This necessity to share creative control can be a challenging adjustment for novelists who are used to having full authority over their work.

Reading Screenplays and the Importance of Detail

Rene explains how her interest in reading screenplays developed from childhood subscriptions to magazines that offered screenplay orders and later through her discovery of screenplays at the library. Moreover, she underscores the importance of understanding screenplays' structure and technical aspects to write compelling and coherent screenplays.

Matty brings up the concept of the reader or viewer filling in details, prompting a discussion on whether reading a screenplay requires the audience to imagine more than they would with a novel. Rene clarifies that screenplays must convey enough detail to guide the directors and actors while allowing them room to interpret the scene.

The Shared and Divergent Experiences in Mediums

The conversation shifts towards the experience of collaborative creativity in screenwriting, comparing it to the solo nature of novel writing. Rene appreciates those instances where directors and actors bring fresh, unexpected takes to scenes, acknowledging that while not every deviation aligns with her vision, the collaborative process often enriches the project.

Matty explores the dual nature of screenplays as both creative works and technical documents. Rene clarifies that screenplays contain specific technical directions, like sound and lighting cues, designed to assist various departments in a film's production. This technical precision is crucial for budgeting and execution.

Seeing Through the Characters' Eyes

The interplay between screenplays and deep point of view in novels is a recurring theme. Screenwriting demands brevity and clarity, often getting into a scene late and exiting early to maintain pace, while novels can explore deeper points of view and internal monologues.

Rene argues that novelists can learn the art of pacing from screenwriting, emphasizing the impact of knowing when to end a scene. This timing is pivotal not only for the audience but also to ensure that the narrative remains engaging. In screenwriting, every page counts, influencing the overall duration of the film, where one page typically equals one minute of screen time.

The Challenges of Adaptation

Rene discusses how authors should approach the adaptation of their novels into screenplays. It's often advised that experienced screenwriters handle adaptations, as the skills required are quite different. The novel's original narrative can serve as an inspiration rather than a verbatim transcription, capturing the essence of the story while adjusting it to suit the visual medium's needs.

The Impact of Fast-Paced Writing and Consideration of AI

Matty raises the subject of AI-generated content, pondering its potential influence on screenwriting and novel writing. Rene expresses her concern over AI's role, valuing the irreplaceable human element and creativity in storytelling. They discuss the evolving landscape, where AI might cater to readers looking for quantity, while quality-driven content remains the domain of human artists.

Learning from Screenwriting for Novelists

Even if novelists have no plans to write screenplays, they can still benefit from understanding screenwriting techniques. Learning when to enter and exit scenes, using concise language, and retaining a strong sense of character point of view can all enhance the pacing and quality of a novel.

Conclusion

Rene concludes by advising authors to balance their aspirations in screenwriting with their current projects. Screenwriting often involves selling spec scripts and working on assignments rather than solely relying on personal creative projects. Emphasizing the importance of perseverance and passion, Rene encourages authors to explore the exciting world of film while continuing to craft compelling narratives in their novels.

Through this detailed conversation, Matty Dalrymple and Rene Gutteridge provide a comprehensive guide for authors navigating the worlds of screenwriting and novel writing, highlighting the unique challenges and opportunities each medium presents.

Matty Dalrymple 8/6/24 Matty Dalrymple 8/6/24

Episode 250 - From Firearms to Fiction with Chris Grall

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Chris Grall discusses FROM FIREARMS TO FICTION, including his book TRIGGER GUARD: A WRITER'S GUIDE TO FIREARMS. Chris shares the challenges he faced in creating consistent and accurate illustrations for his book, with some valuable do’s and don’t’s for authors with books that include illustrations; the attitude he brought to receiving feedback from his target audiences; and the goal of his book: to enable writers to write gripping and accurate firearms scenes.

Chris Grall is a retired US Special Forces team sergeant with 26 years of service. In 2007, he served as a technical advisor for Scott Sigler's book CONTAGIOUS, and since then, he’s shared his knowledge of firearms with authors via his consulting business, TactiQuill, and at conferences.

Episode Links

https://trigger-guard.com/
https://chrisgrall.com/
https://www.facebook.com/chris.grall.9
https://x.com/dtn8or

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Chris Grall about various facets of writing about firearms in fiction and the challenges he encountered while creating his book, "Trigger Guard." Chris shares his journey, from illustration and formatting struggles to gathering meaningful feedback for his work.

Matty Dalrymple, the host, sets the stage for an insightful conversation by detailing how she first met Chris, who has a unique background as a retired U.S. Special Forces Team Sergeant and a consultant on firearms for authors. Chris's journey culminated in the creation of "Trigger Guard," a comprehensive guide for writers on the usage and detailed aspects of firearms.

Illustration Challenges

Chris highlights how he tackled the illustrations for "Trigger Guard." He created the illustrations himself using PowerPoint, a process that turned out to be labor-intensive and time-consuming.

He explained, "It was painful. It would take me at least two or three hours just to do a single firearm, and I think there are a hundred and something drawings in there. It was horrible."

When Matty inquired whether Chris had considered using photographs instead, Chris clarified that maintaining consistency across all illustrations was crucial. He noted that stock images could have been expensive and inconsistent, thus justifying the choice to create his own graphics.

Choosing the Right Approach

Chris mentioned that with hindsight, he might have approached the process differently. Instead of illustrating sporadically, he would have initially examined all the firearms he planned to include to avoid unnecessary work.

"Through the editing process, that gun fell out of the book as a specific firearm I was going to talk about," Chris said, emphasizing the importance of forethought in the creative process.

Deadlines as Motivators

Chris attributed a significant part of his productivity to setting personal deadlines. His goal was to have "Trigger Guard" ready for purchase by ThrillerFest, a conference that he believed would be the ideal exhibition platform. He emphasized how having a deadline can enhance efficiency:

"There are points where you are a slave to the process and you have no control over how much time it takes for some things to happen."

DIY Publishing and Marketing Choices

The decision to indie publish "Trigger Guard" was influenced by Chris’s desire to get the book to the market quickly, especially considering its niche nature. Going the traditional publishing route could have delayed the book’s availability significantly, a luxury he couldn’t afford given the book’s specific audience.

“Trigger Guard is a very niche book. It’s not gonna be a New York Times bestseller... the faster I could get it out, the faster people could get access to it, use it, and hopefully not make mistakes.”

Content Creation and Layout

Chris provided a candid reflection on the initial decision to draft the entire book using PowerPoint, which made the editing process cumbersome. Illustrations and text elements would displace upon converting documents, causing significant headaches.

"The original sin of this book was to do the entire first draft in PowerPoint. It was a horror show."

Feedback and Iteration

Gathering feedback was another critical component of Chris's process. He sought insights from three distinct groups: authors, firearms experts, and general readers. This multifaceted feedback enabled him to fine-tune the book to serve various levels of firearms knowledge.

Balancing Detail and Readability

Matty and Chris also discussed the importance of balancing technical details with readability in fiction. Chris stressed that while writers need to possess detailed knowledge, they should be cautious about overwhelming readers with excessive technicalities.

"I like generic actions with specific firearms. You’re going to load a gun, you’re going to fire a gun, you’re going to aim the gun... That’s good enough for most scenes."

He recounted practical examples and mistakes, such as the common but incorrect portrayal of empty guns clicking, underscoring the importance of accuracy.

Inspirations for Fictional Gunfights

Chris shared case studies from real-life scenarios, such as the assassination attempt on Harry Truman, to illustrate the unpredictable and often chaotic nature of gunfights. These examples serve as valuable resources for authors aiming to depict realistic firearms scenes.

Conclusion

In summarizing the wealth of experience, Chris offers valuable advice for both writers and readers. Chris's approach to creating "Trigger Guard" and his candid reflections on the process provide strong takeaways for any author dealing with technical subjects in their writing.

"Trigger Guard is meant for anyone in the full array of firearms experience. You can use it as a resource or read it cover to cover."

Final Thoughts

Chris's journey exemplifies the intricate balance between technical accuracy and creative storytelling. His insights into the challenges of illustrative consistency, the importance of deadlines, and the necessity for diverse feedback make this podcast episode a must-listen for any author dealing with specialized topics.

For more, you can find Chris Grall and his work at ChrisGrall.com, Trigger-Guard.com, and his consulting venture Tactiquill.com.

Matty Dalrymple 7/30/24 Matty Dalrymple 7/30/24

Episode 249 - How to Keep Non-Fiction Fresh with Anna Featherstone

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I talk with Anna Featherstone about HOW TO KEEP NON-FICTION FRESH, including maintaining the human touch in an age of AI, the importance of fresh perspectives, effective book proposals, and integrating multiple viewpoints. Anna also emphasizes the need for authenticity, the strategic exclusion of outdated or overly technical information, and innovative formats that can enhance the reader's experience.

Anna Featherstone mentors and empowers writers who value practical, warm, wise, and creative advice during the various stages of writing, publishing and marketing their words. She is the author of five non-fiction books, a judge of the Australian Business Book Awards, and the non-fiction book advisor to The Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi). Anna is also the founder of Bold Authors, a collaborative online hub where publishing insiders share their insights about writing, publishing, and book marketing. When she’s not being bookish, Anna is a seedsaver, and into bees, beings, and the big issues of our time.

Episode Links

https://annafeatherstone.com/
https://www.instagram.com/annafeatherstonewriter/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-featherstone-writer/
https://www.threads.net/@annafeatherstonewriter
https://www.facebook.com/AnnaFeatherstoneWriter/
https://aus.social/@AnnaFeatherstone

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Anna Featherstone about her insights on how to keep nonfiction writing fresh and engaging. The discussion covers Anna's motivations for writing nonfiction, different strategies to maintain freshness, and suggestions for nonfiction authors to enhance their writing process.

Anna's Journey into Nonfiction
Anna Featherstone shares that her passion for writing nonfiction began with a deep love for exploring topics through writing. She emphasizes that the clarity and understanding she gains from writing help her make sense of the world. Anna appreciates nonfiction for its ability to develop empathy and provide insights into different perspectives.

The Importance of Freshness in Nonfiction
Anna believes that keeping nonfiction fresh is crucial for both writers and readers. A stale narrative can drive readers away and make the writing process tedious for the author. To combat this, Anna suggests putting a project aside if it starts feeling dull. She asserts that the energy and passion for a topic should be present from the beginning of the writing process, including during the creation of a book proposal.

Book Proposals as a Tool
Anna discusses the importance of writing a book proposal, even if it’s just for oneself. A book proposal helps in planning and gauging one’s commitment to a project. According to Anna, it includes the book's basic idea, market placement, target audience, marketing ideas, and potential experts for interviews. This process helps filter out projects that might not be worth pursuing and ensures that the writer’s enthusiasm remains high throughout the writing process.

Bringing Fresh Perspectives
One of the most effective ways to keep nonfiction fresh is by offering a unique perspective. Anna encourages authors to consider alternative angles that haven't been overexplored. For example, a book on knitting written by a man or a parenting guide co-authored by a teenager would bring unusually fresh viewpoints. Anna also emphasizes the value of choosing unique and lesser-known experts for interviews to avoid overused quotes and ideas.

Handling AI in Nonfiction Writing
The conversation touches on the role of AI in nonfiction. Anna shares her reluctance to use AI extensively in her projects, expressing concerns about losing the uniqueness of her fresh ideas to the machine. Instead, she prefers to keep her work original and authentic by relying mainly on tools like ProWritingAid for final cleanups rather than content generation.

Engaging with Sensory Details
Anna recommends incorporating sensory details to make writing more engaging. Describing experiences in a way that involves sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell can make a story come alive for readers. This technique can be applied beyond memoirs to other nonfiction topics, enhancing the reader’s connection with the content.

Collaborations and Multiple Viewpoints
Collaborating with others can add depth and freshness to a book. Anna gives an example of a memoir enriched by including perspectives from different family members. This multi-faceted approach can provide a more comprehensive and engaging narrative. Moreover, including interviews and case studies from a diverse set of people worldwide can expand the book’s appeal and marketing potential.

Practical Strategies for Marketing Nonfiction
Anna offers practical advice on marketing nonfiction work. She highlights the importance of bullet points and concise, targeted pitches when reaching out to bloggers, podcasters, and reviewers. She also suggests conducting interviews to gather content and marketing opportunities, recommending that authors leverage international interviews to gain fresh perspectives.

Evergreen Content vs. Timely Trends
Matty and Anna discuss the balance between creating evergreen content and capitalizing on current trends. While evergreen content remains relevant for a longer period, timely topics, such as AI, can attract immediate attention but may quickly become outdated. Authors need to be clear about their strategy and the lifespan they expect for their work.

Making Content Personal and Unique
To stand out, nonfiction should reflect the author’s unique voice and experiences. Anna jokes about using personal anecdotes, humor, and unique metaphorical structures to make the content more relatable and engaging. Matty shares how she used a nautical metaphor throughout her book to provide a fresh twist on the topic of podcasting.

Conclusion
Anna Featherstone’s advice centers on the principle that fresh, engaging nonfiction results from passion, unique perspectives, and smart planning. Whether through multi-sensory details, unique angles, or strategic collaborations, authors can keep their non-fiction vibrant and appealing to readers. Anna encourages writers to allow their individuality to shine through their content, ensuring their book stands out in a crowded market.

Matty Dalrymple 7/23/24 Matty Dalrymple 7/23/24

Episode 248 - Constructing a Multi-Layered Villain with Greta Boris

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Greta Boris discusses CONSTRUCTING A MULTI-LAYERED VILLAIN, including how analyzing villains in our previous works can help us understand what does and doesn’t work with readers and how characters' personalities, based on tools like Enneagram, influence their effectiveness as villains. We also explore examples of well-crafted villains from TV shows like Breaking Bad and movies like The Silence of the Lambs. Greta shares insights from her personal writing process and touches on the challenges and nuances of writing morally complex villains.

Greta Boris is the USA Today Bestselling author of The Mortician Murders, a ghosty mystery series, and the soon to be released Almost True Crime thriller series. She's also co-creator of The Author Wheel, producers of books, courses, and a podcast dedicated to helping writers overcome their roadblocks.

Episode Links

https://www.gretaboris.com
https://www.facebook.com/greta.boris/
https://podcast.authorwheel.com

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, I talk with Greta Boris about the multifaceted nature of villains in storytelling. Our conversation explores various themes, from the allure of playful antagonists to the competition between heroes and villains, offering valuable insights for authors and storytellers.

The Multifaceted Villain

In our discussion, Greta emphasizes that a great villain often possesses layers beyond mere malice. She points out that memorable antagonists, like Moriarty from the Sherlock Holmes series, captivate audiences not just through their deeds but through their complex personalities.

Playfulness and Competition

We discuss the playful nature of villains, using Moriarty as an example. This playful aspect makes the character's interactions with Sherlock Holmes more compelling. This is a broader trait found in other notable villains such as Hannibal Lecter, who engages in an intellectual game with his enemies. This playfulness, combined with a sense of competition, adds layers to their personalities, making them more engaging for the audience.

Beyond the Archetype

Our conversation also delves into the importance of moving beyond archetypical representations of villains. We discuss how adding unique traits and motivations can significantly enhance a villain's depth. For instance, a villain who sees their actions as a game can create a dynamic interplay with the hero, pushing the narrative in unexpected directions.

The Role of Perspective

We touch on how a villain's perspective can redefine the story. By exploring the villain’s mindset and motivations, writers can create more rounded characters whose actions, although villainous, are understandable within their own logic. This approach not only enriches the story but also challenges the audience to see the world from a different point of view.

Key Takeaways

1. Complex Characters: Villains with multifaceted personalities are often more engaging and memorable.
2. Playful Antagonists: Incorporating a sense of playfulness and competition can add depth to villain-hero dynamics.
3. Unique Motivations: Moving beyond archetypes and exploring unique motivations can enhance character development.
4. Perspective Matters: Understanding a villain’s perspective can add richness to the story and offer new angles for the narrative.

Matty Dalrymple 7/9/24 Matty Dalrymple 7/9/24

Episode 246 - The Secrets of World-Building: It’s the Small Stuff with Timons Esaias

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Timons Esaias discusses THE SECRETS OF WORLD-BUILDING: IT’S THE SMALL STUFF, including his insights into effective world-building for fiction, emphasizing the importance of small, non-generic details that enhance character development and scene-setting. He touches on the difference between immersive storytelling and simpler narratives and offers practical tips on how to gather and use unique details from ephemera, old books, and postcards to enrich a narrative. He offers guidance on balancing research with storytelling ... and on knowing when to stop.

Timons Esaias is a satirist, writer, and poet living in Pittsburgh. His works, ranging from literary to genre, have been published in twenty-two languages. He has been a finalist for the British Science Fiction Award, and he won the Winter Anthology Contest, the SFPA Poetry Contest, and the Asimov's Readers Award (twice). He is a recent Pushcart nominee, and Intrepid Award winner for the story "To Do." His poetry collection is “Why Elephants No Longer Communicate in Greek.” He collects chess sets.

Episode Links

https://twitter.com/EsaiasTimons
https://www.facebook.com/timons.esaias/
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/867037.Timons_Esaias

Summary

The interview opened with an introduction to Timons Esaias, an esteemed satirist, writer, and poet. He's known for his diverse literary works published in 22 languages and his accolades, including being a finalist for the British Science Fiction Award and winning multiple writing contests. The conversation aimed to delve deep into the nuances of world-building and character development in fiction writing.

The Importance of Small Details
Timons began by emphasizing the importance of integrating small, meaningful details into both world-building and character development. He noted that focusing on particulars like adornments, everyday tools, and small personal items adds depth and authenticity to the narrative.

Quote: "One of the things I find missing in fiction is anybody wearing anything and any story behind it."

By concentrating on these finer elements, writers can convey much more about their characters and settings without overwhelming the reader with exhaustive descriptions.

Leveraging Playsearch for World-Building
Timons introduced the concept of "playsearch", a playful and exploratory approach to research. Instead of traditional research methods, playsearch involves flipping through old catalogues, postcards, and ephemera to draw inspiration and authentic details for fictional worlds.

Example: "For a science fiction setting, I can look at 1886 and go, okay, that's already changed. How will it change again by the time it's in my story?"

This method helps writers to add realism and depth to their settings by drawing on historical and cultural references.

Emphasizing Character Reactions
Timons argued for the importance of focusing on character reactions rather than exhaustive physical descriptions. Readers will naturally form their own mental images of characters, making it more impactful to describe how characters make others feel or react.

Quote: "We judge people in an instant when we meet them. And it's utterly unfair, but we do it."

This approach ensures that descriptions serve a narrative purpose and deepen the reader's engagement with the characters.

Using Cultural Exceptions to Establish Norms
Illustrating cultural norms through exceptions is another powerful tool Timons recommends. By showing what happens when something goes wrong or deviates from the norm, writers can effectively establish the rules of their fictional world.

Example: "You get somebody upset by the fact that it's not working, now we know what the rules are."

Strategic Research Approaches
While emphasizing the importance of research, Timons advised writers to write their initial drafts first and then conduct targeted research to fill in specific gaps. This ensures that time is spent effectively on indispensable details that contribute to the story.

Quote: "Write the story first, then research the things you need."

He also pointed out that different audiences require different levels of detail. Writers should balance the depth of their world-building based on whether their readers prefer immersive worlds or simpler, more focused storytelling.

The Role of Architecture and Maps
Timons discussed the value of books on architecture and maps as essential resources for sparking creativity and ensuring consistency in world-building. These resources offer insights into different time periods and cultural practices, helping writers create believable settings.

Example: "I have this history of London in maps... it's been useful, especially with students who are setting things in London."

Understanding the layout of streets and the architectural styles of different periods enhances the authenticity and inspires new ideas for settings.

Practical Insight: Matty mentioned how historical research helped him avoid mistakes, like discovering that a modern through street was not a through street in the past due to a fire. Such details honor the setting and improve the reader's experience.

Distinctive Character Development
Timons highlighted the importance of describing unique behaviors or possessions of characters instead of falling back on generic traits. This makes characters more memorable and authentic.

Quote: "Find a thing, or a behavior, that will reveal it."

By focusing on specific, revealing details, writers can avoid repetitive descriptions and instead use these to deepen character development.

Knowing When to Stop Researching
Recognizing when to stop researching and start writing can be challenging. Timons offered practical advice: if you feel drained by a story, it's likely you’ve gathered sufficient information.

Quote: "Psychologically, if you're shelving a story because you are just tired of it, it's probably tired of you."

This helps writers avoid endless cycles of research that don't contribute meaningfully to the narrative.

Effective Writing Techniques
Timons shared several practical writing techniques:

1. Start in the Middle: Captivate readers quickly by dropping them into the middle of the action and revealing the world's details gradually.

   Example: "With immersive settings, start in the middle. Have a lot of stuff going by that’s interesting but you don’t explain at first."

2. Infuse Meaning: Ensure every descriptive element in the story adds plot complexity or character depth.

   Quote: "Only if you're adding plot complexity in an interesting way or meaning should a thing be in there."

3. Secret Symbolism: Using secret meanings or symbolic elements, which might not be immediately apparent to readers, can give depth to the narrative.

   Example: Timons mentioned using a real map and fictionalizing its details to create an underlying structure of meaning.

Resource Recommendations
Timons recommended exploring museums and antique shops, as they often contain bins of old postcards or books that provide historical context and inspiration.

Quote: "Little bins full of old postcards... frequently, it’s not the main thing they’re portraying but what is parked next to it or what the gal in the front is wearing."

In addition, he suggested looking through travel guides and ephemera for insights into daily life and cultural practices that add realism to writing.

Conclusion
Timons’ approach to incorporating small, meaningful details, leveraging real-world inspiration, and using practical research techniques can help any writer elevate their storytelling. By focusing on these aspects, writers can create rich, immersive narratives that resonate with readers, making fictional worlds feel as real as the one we live in.

Matty Dalrymple 7/2/24 Matty Dalrymple 7/2/24

Episode 245 - Co-Authoring Fiction with LynDee Walker and Bruce Coffin

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This week on The Indy Author Podcast, I talk with LynDee Walker and Bruce Coffin about their experiences co-authoring the Turner and Mosley series. LynDee, an award-winning journalist and author of 19 novels, shares how her abundance of ideas led to the co-authoring opportunity with Bruce, a retired detective sergeant and best-selling novelist. The duo discusses how their collaboration began through mutual acquaintances, how they navigated the creative and logistical processes, and the unique methods they use to keep their writing cohesive. They highlight the importance of trust, creative synergy, and clear communication in a co-authoring relationship. With insights into blending their writing styles and managing different genres, both authors provide valuable tips for aspiring co-authors. The episode also delves into the development of their characters and storylines, emphasizing the fun and challenging aspects of writing collaboratively.

Episode Links

LynDee's Links:
lyndeewalker.com
facebook.com/lyndeewalkerbooks

Bruce's Links:
https://severnriverbooks.com/collections/bruce-robert-coffin
https://www.facebook.com/brucerobertcoffin
https://www.instagram.com/brucerobertcoffinauthor/
https://www.threads.net/@brucerobertcoffinauthor

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, I talk with LynDee Walker and Bruce Coffin about the intricacies and nuances of co-authoring fiction. Our conversation dives into the logistical, creative, and personal aspects of sharing the reins of a writing project.

Meet LynDee Walker

Our discussion begins with LynDee Walker, who provides listeners with an informative look into her book series and her collaboration with Bruce Coffin. LynDee introduces her fictional world, where strong women who find themselves frequently entangled in trouble take center stage. Her series, Turner and Moseley Files, co-authored with Bruce Coffin, brings a unique blend of adventure, mystery, and character dynamics.

Why Co-Author?

LynDee explains that the opportunity to co-author arose when she found herself overwhelmed with ideas but constrained by time. During a call with her agent, she discussed a concept involving young, resourceful characters who use their wealth and freedom to solve mysteries and embark on treasure hunts. Faced with her busy schedule, the suggestion to bring on a co-author seemed promising. This is when Bruce Coffin, a writer LynDee admired and trusted, was brought into the mix.

Testing the Partnership

To ensure compatibility, LynDee and Bruce decided on creating a sample chapter. This practice chapter allowed them to test the waters. Bruce initially had reservations, but the sample proved that they could indeed work harmoniously. LynDee recounts how Bruce’s wife, agent, and she herself were convinced about the potential success of their collaboration, eventually leading Bruce to agree fully.

The Creative Process

One highlight of the episode is LynDee’s detailed description of how the creative process is navigated. She generally takes charge of plotting and outlining, sending Bruce what she refers to as a "detailed outline." Initially, these outlines were extensive, running as long as 53,000 words for the first book. Bruce would then flesh out these outlines into full drafts, which LynDee would polish and enhance, a process that Bruce humorously describes as her "sprinkling glitter" on the manuscript.

Navigating Differences

LynDee emphasizes the importance of personal compatibility and shared vision in co-authoring. They had numerous discussions to ensure both had a unified outlook on the series' direction. The positive feedback from their editor and the seamless integration of their individual contributions were key indicators of their successful partnership.

Consider the Goal of Your Co-Authored Work

LynDee and Matty discuss the varying goals writers might have when co-authoring, from promotional crossovers to creating a cohesive series. This versatility allows for different methods of collaboration, whether focusing on seamless integration or showcasing distinct narrative voices.

Meet Bruce Coffin

Transitioning to Bruce Coffin, Matty underscores his impressive background in crime fiction and his decision-making process in joining LynDee for the Turner and Moseley Files. Bruce provides insight into his initial hesitations and how conversations with peers and his agent convinced him to embrace the opportunity, including an anecdotal endorsement from Reed Farrell Coleman.

Methods of Work

Bruce details how they handle the logistics of co-writing. Unlike some collaborations that involve shared online documents, Bruce and LynDee prefer keeping it simple with email exchanges of Word documents. This straightforward method works effectively for them, despite the copious file versions they each accumulate over time.

Bruce's Approach

Bruce’s approach to writing within the confines of LynDee’s outlines is both innovative and disciplined. He reads only as much of the outline as he requires for his current writing task, preserving a sense of discovery and excitement akin to reader engagement. This method ensures his creative freedom while respecting the plotted framework.

Differences in Genre

Bruce elaborates on the genre transition from detective procedurals to the more action-adventure style of the Turner and Moseley Files. This shift allowed for more imaginative and extreme scenarios, which can be liberating compared to the stringent realism required in crime procedurals.

Trust and Feedback

The element of trust is a recurring theme in their collaboration. Bruce highlights the importance of trusting each other’s instincts and decisions. Matty and Bruce agree that mutual respect and trust are crucial in successfully co-authoring fiction, ensuring that both partners feel confident and valued in their creative input.

Future Projects and Advice

Bruce teases his upcoming series, the Detective Justice Mysteries, which promises to retain the gritty, procedural essence of his previous work while introducing new dimensions and locales. When advising prospective co-authors, Bruce reiterates the significance of setting clear expectations and ensuring creative compatibility through honest and open conversations.

Conclusion

LynDee and Bruce's interview on The Indy Author Podcast provides insights into the art of co-authoring. From the technical logistics to the interpersonal dynamics and creative processes, their experience underlines the potential of collaborative writing when approached with mutual respect, clear communication, and a shared vision for the narrative.

Matty Dalrymple 6/18/24 Matty Dalrymple 6/18/24

Episode 243 - Mistakes Writers Make about Forensic Psychology with Katherine Ramsland

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Katherine Ramsland discusses MISTAKES WRITERS MAKE ABOUT FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGY, including these commons mistakes and how to avoid them: They are used as profilers because detectives can’t do this work; they visit crime scenes to advise on catching a killer; they profile a person; they interrogate suspects; they undertake hypnosis or therapy in the courtroom; they pronounce defendants to be sane or insane; and they can accurately predict long-range future violent behavior without standardized tools.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland teaches forensic psychology and behavioral criminology in the graduate program at DeSales University, where she is Professor Emerita. She has appeared as an expert on more than 200 crime documentaries and was an executive producer on "Murder House Flip" and A&E’s "Confession of a Serial killer: BTK." The author of 72 books, including "The Serial Killer’s Apprentice" and "How to Catch a Killer," she pens a regular blog for Psychology Today. She has also written a crime fiction series based on a female forensic psychologist, Annie Hunter, who consults on death investigations.

Episode Links

www.katherineramsland.net
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shadow-boxing/202405/10-mistakes-fiction-writers-make-about-forensic-psychology

Summary

In this episode of "The Indy Author Podcast," host Matty Dalrymple interviews Dr. Katherine Ramsland, a prominent forensic psychologist. Ramsland, who teaches at DeSales University, is an accomplished author with 72 books to her credit, including "The Serial Killer's Apprentice" and "How to Catch a Killer." Her extensive experience as an expert on over 200 crime documentaries and her role on shows like "Murder House Flip" and "Confession of a Serial Killer: BTK" makes her a highly respected figure in the field.

Introduction to Forensic Psychology:
Ramsland explains that forensic psychology lies at the intersection of psychology and the legal system. Forensic psychologists typically analyze competency for courtroom cases, assess mental states at the time of offenses, and develop prison programs. They apply principles from social, clinical, and cognitive psychology to the legal system. Unlike criminologists who focus on trend analysis and crime prevention from a sociological perspective, forensic psychologists deal with individual behaviors and mental states related to crimes.

Common Misconceptions in Forensic Psychology:
Ramsland identifies several common mistakes that writers make when depicting forensic psychologists in fiction.

1. Profiling Misconception:
   Contrary to popular belief, forensic psychologists are not primarily profilers. Profiling involves analyzing crime scene behaviors to understand the type of person who might commit a crime, rather than displacing detectives in investigations. Ramsland highlights that detectives, with their extensive training and experience, do not necessarily rely on profilers, and the portrayal of forensic psychologists as superior to detectives in profiling is both inaccurate and insulting.

2. Crime Scene Involvement:
   Forensic psychologists typically do not visit crime scenes to catch killers. Their role is more consultative, often analyzing crime scene photos rather than being physically present at the scenes. Ramsland emphasizes the unrealistic nature of depictions where forensic psychologists are shown tramping through crime scenes or exhuming bodies.

3. Profiling Individuals:
   The notion of profiling individuals, as popularized by shows like "Criminal Minds," is misleading. Instead, forensic psychologists analyze behavioral clues from crime scenes to understand the type of person who could commit the crime. This approach focuses on crime scene analysis rather than reading or profiling individuals.

4. Interrogating Suspects:
   Forensic psychologists do not conduct suspect interrogations. Their role may involve consulting on behavioral strategies but not directly engaging in interrogation processes. Misrepresentations include the idea that psychologists have special insights into detecting deception, which is not supported by research.

5. Courtroom Therapy and Hypnosis:
   Depictions of forensic psychologists conducting therapy or hypnosis in courtrooms are highly inaccurate. Ramsland explains that their courtroom role is either to analyze and provide expert opinions or to clarify complex psychological concepts to the jury or judge. Hypnosis, once a common investigative tool, is now largely discredited due to its unreliability in producing accurate memories.

6. Sane or Insane Pronouncements:
   Forensic psychologists do not have the authority to declare a defendant sane or insane. Insanity is a legal term, and the decision is made by the trier of fact (judge or jury), not by mental health experts. Psychologists can provide insights into a defendant's state of mind but do not make legal determinations.

7. Predicting Future Violence:
   The ability of forensic psychologists to predict long-term violent behavior is limited and relies on standardized tools assessing various risk factors. Predictive accuracy diminishes with time, and changes in a person’s life circumstances can invalidate earlier predictions. Ramsland stresses the importance of adhering to best practice standards to avoid liability for future violent acts committed by released individuals.

Impact of Social Media on Forensic Psychology:
Ramsland discusses how social media has become a vital tool in forensic psychology, providing insights into individuals' behaviors and potential threats. Social media activity can be crucial in assessing imminent threats and preventing violent acts.

Conclusion:
The episode includes Ramsland sharing insights into her crime fiction series featuring Annie Hunter, a forensic psychologist. By integrating real-life forensic techniques and maintaining accuracy, Ramsland enhances the credibility and intrigue of her stories. The discussion provides valuable guidance for writers aiming to create authentic and engaging crime fiction, while also highlighting the complexities and ethical considerations inherent in forensic psychology.

Transcript

Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Katherine Ramsland. Hey, Katherine, how are you doing?

Katherine: I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Meet Katherine Ramsland

Matty: I am pleased to have you here and to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you. Dr. Katherine Ramsland teaches forensic psychology and behavioral criminology in the graduate program at DeSales University, where she is Professor Emerita.

She's appeared as an expert on more than 200 crime documentaries and was an executive producer on "Murder House Flip" and A&E's "Confession of a Serial Killer: BTK." The author of 72 books, including "The Serial Killer's Apprentice" and "How to Catch a Killer," she pens a regular blog for Psychology Today.

She's also written a crime fiction series based on a female forensic psychologist, Annie Hunter, who consults on death investigations. I invited Katherine on the podcast because I ran into her at the Mechanicsburg Mystery Bookshop's I Scream for Mysteries event. As I had told her, I tried to go to one of her talks at a conference one year, and it was full. It was beyond standing room only when I showed up, so I was not able to hear her. I'm fascinated by what she does, and we're going to be talking about mistakes writers make about forensic psychology.

What is Forensic Psychology?

Matty: It's probably useful to provide a little more context and just talk a little bit about what a forensic psychologist is and what their role is before we dive into some of the things about what their role is not.

Katherine: Okay. Forensic psychology is where the court and investigative systems interact with psychology, and most forensic psychologists are clinical psychologists. They are there to analyze for competency for the courtroom or mental state at the time of the offense, or prison programs. Quite often, they're there to apply concepts from social, clinical, and cognitive psychology to the court system.

Criminologists, who are often confused with forensic psychologists, approach crime through a sociological frame. They're looking at trend analysis, trying to look at the factors that elicit crimes, cause crimes, and trying to contain or prevent crimes. Criminalists are people working with the physical evidence, and criminal psychologists, a subset of forensic psychology, study things like motive and offender behavior pre-crime, post-crime, and things like that. Forensic psychology itself is a broad, sweeping subject area with many different aspects to it.
Mistake #1: "Forensic psychologists are used as profilers because detectives can’t do this work."

Matty: So we're going to dive right in with the first one, which is they're used as profilers because detectives can't do this work.

Katherine: So, I want to put some context in this. When I was doing an MFA fairly recently, as one of my graduate degrees, I read a lot of crime fiction, specifically with female protagonists, British and American. Because there's a lot of forensic psychology that comes into these novels, I was very surprised to find out so many people thought that's about all they do is profiling.

And that really limits the range of things that a forensic psychologist can actually talk about or consult on. There was also this idea that they were better at it than detectives, and some of the crime shows do this as well, the fiction shows. The detectives have lots of experience, they often get training, and often they don't even think the idea of profiling is very helpful, because they're looking at investigative things that aren't really about personality issues and motivation. So, the idea that a forensic psychologist can come in as a profiler and in some way displace the detective is, first of all, insulting, and secondly, it just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't work that way.

Now, in England, they operate as, I think it's called behavioral investigative analysts. And they are consultants, but again, they don't displace detectives in any way.

Matty: Well, it is nice to hear that if someone's writing a book or a series with a detective protagonist, they don't have to shy away from this. Normally when we hear from experts, they say, you know, you really shouldn't be doing this, but here's a case where you're saying, here's an opportunity that people aren't really taking advantage of, because a detective can have a wider scope of responsibility than maybe people think.

Katherine: Yeah, and forensic psychologists have a much greater range of skills and abilities than they're given credit for in some of the crime fiction, in a lot of the crime fiction, most of it.

Mistake #2: "They visit crime scenes to advise on catching a killer."

Matty: I have the feeling we're going to be hitting what some of those are in our conversation, but another mistake that you would call out that writers make is they visit crime scenes to advise on catching a killer. Talk about that a little bit.

Katherine: So, they're not there to catch a killer, that's the work of investigators. They are there, and then they don't visit the crime scenes. They may look at crime scene photos. They might visit at some point, but they're not on the scene. We've seen in movies where they'll get into the grave. That's, that was the one I thought was just crazy. They'll go, they'll just tramp right in through, go right to the body. These are not things that they do. They will consult. They often will never even look at crime scene photos. That's not necessarily what they're there to do. And so that's not really the point for them. They're not there to help catch a killer.

Matty: I'm going to be curious as we work through these Mistakes Writers Make lists that, since you yourself are writing fiction with a forensic psychologist, how did you accommodate the needs of entertaining fiction along with the reality that you're aware of in how these things actually work?

Katherine: Well, that is why my forensic psychologist, Annie Hunter, operates in a PI agency. So she has a team, and that cuts through a lot of the... so she has a PI who goes to do the research. She has a data analyst. She has a range of consultants, as I have, doing the kind of work I do. She's a suicidologist, as I also am. I consult with coroners and medical examiners. I have trained police officers. So I give her the same things that I have as access to other professionals who come in and help cut through some of the timing aspects. I try to keep it pretty accurate. I don't have the same problems with having to wait on crime labs, you know, because we're doing psychology here. So if she's consulting, or sometimes she'll take on a case just because it's of interest to her, or she has something, you know, like in the second novel, she lost a childhood friend to a guy who abducted her right in front of her, and it was never found. So that's her own case. That's her own personal agenda. She uses her team for that, and she's not held back by timing issues.

So there are things that you can do with forensic psychology, but you have to bring in these adjunct people who can do things. Like, I have a forensic meteorologist who assists with reading the geology and the weather factors, so Annie doesn't have to do that. But the great thing about having a team is they can go do the research and report back, so you don't have a lot of painstaking, "I did this, I did this, I did this," and it is told from a first-person perspective because she is a lot like me. But when you use these adjunct experts, much of that work is taken care of so you can attend to the suspense and the plot.

Matty: That seems like another good opportunity for people, not something to hold them back, but something to take advantage of. Because if you do have this team of people, then it takes care of some of these situations where you have a solo practitioner, and they're doing these things, and sometimes they're these very labored ways that, like, it's the point of view character they're trying to... what they're learning with the reader. But if you have a team of people like you're describing, then it's very natural, it's just a natural part of their interaction that they're describing what they found out or what their theories are, what investigation they've done. And I think that feels more natural, but it's also fun for a reader to kind of eavesdrop on.

Katherine: It is, and you put it into conversations, you can introduce new characters, unusual characters. You know, what are you doing with this drone? How does this work? How can we use a cadaver dog with that? So, and these are all based on things that I've done. Some of the characters are based on people I know, so that actually helps with the sense of reality. But at the same time, I understand you need the suspense, you need the build-up and whatnot. So I build in that. That is not something most forensic psychologists face, but because she runs a PI agency and it's called the Nutcrackers because they take on hard nuts to crack. So she always has really twisty cases, but they're based on real cases. That really are twisty in bizarre ways, and that's the fun of it.

Matty: Well, I have to ask a question that was not on your Mistakes Writers Make list, which is how much do you feel like you have to change the facts of an actual case for the purposes of your fiction work?

Katherine: The cases I use are not well known, so that helps. And then I change names. I'll change the nature of certain relationships. Place, dates, I'll shift that, but I'll keep the gist of the case pretty much intact, and that doesn't violate anything. It doesn't violate privacy. It doesn't, you know, I'm not... all I'm doing is taking a really bizarre case, because they always are strange, and putting it in a different context. And creating characters that grow organically from that context that can present the case, and then Annie gets into it. This is part of my MFA work because I had already had a number of other master's degrees. My MFA supervisors were able to do this with me, but what I presented was narrative non-fiction, but inject my fiction characters into it. So I used the exercises in the MFA program to put my characters in motion in real cases that I knew about or that I'd been involved in. So I kind of had that going for me when I was doing that work, not knowing that I was going to then make this into a fiction series. It was really more of an exercise for me and now, you know, it grew into something, but it always was based on actual cases. And I would typically change dates, names, and locations.

Matty: And did you say that these were less well known, these were just cases that you came across in the process of your professional life?

Katherine: Mostly, I mean, there is one that got national attention, but I changed the names and I injected people into it that hadn't been part of it. But mostly I will try to find cases that aren't well known. That's the nice thing about being in the forensic world in a professional context is that I find and I hear about cases that the general public just never will have, they'll never hear about it. And even if they try looking them up, they probably can't.

Matty: About forensic meteorology, I think is what you said, was interesting to me because I'm a big aviation nerd and I have to say that I watch an embarrassingly large number of aviation accident investigations on YouTube. And it's interesting because there is always this aspect like at the time of the accident, you know, there was a scattered cloud layer at 1,000 feet. I never thought of that as being like a specific sort of expertise area, which is, I'm assuming what you mean by forensic meteorology.

Katherine: It is an expertise area. I always have weather in my novels because I love weather, and I think weather is a great character. So the first one has a hurricane, the second one has a tornado, and the third one has a snowstorm. And of course, forensic meteorology will figure into when you find bodies in these weather situations, they bring in expertise for that. But in particular, in the second novel, there was a device that was invented recently for looking at, you know, with a drone, getting sensor readings from trees, and how they would have sucked up nutrients from the soil, and if there were a body buried, it would show up in different foliage colors. Typically, you need the sensor to see it. It's not that visible to the human eye, so she comes in with her drone, and what she needs is Annie Hunter's access to cadaver dogs to corroborate. So it became a really fun scene, introducing her story, and then having that all in motion for what they needed to do. And then the meteorologist ended up in the third book because she, at the end of the second one, she says, "Oh, I found this case of someone who was killed in a tornado, and it looks like it wasn't an accident." So the weather figures into that. And that sets me up for the third one.

Matty: That's very cool. Yeah. I can imagine that the nutrients from the body are reflected in the trees in some way. It could not only be good for crime fiction, but also there's kind of like a fantasy-esque aspect there. I think that people who write fantasy as well are going to be intrigued by that. Like, that's a pretty cool idea.

Katherine: Yeah. And it's complicated because animals die too in the woods. So, hence the cadaver dogs, because they're specialists in human scent.

Matty: Yeah. It's very interesting. The timing of this is nice because I just interviewed Kathleen Donnelly about mistakes writers make about working canines. And part of the conversation was about search and rescue dogs and exactly what you're saying, you know, how do you train a dog to alert on human remains, but not chipmunk remains, for example.

Katherine: Yeah, and I worked with someone who did that, and we did several... I was on an exhumation team, so we did several searches with human
Here is the corrected text with improved readability:

Mistake #3: They profile a person.

Matty: Yeah, that's very interesting. One of the other things that you had sent as a mistake people make, which I think really goes to kind of probably the heart of a lot of what forensic psychology addresses, is that a mistake is that they profile a person. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Katherine: Yeah, they're not there to profile a person. The notion of that is like reading behavior, and typically that's about trying to do threat assessment, something like that. They're not there to, that's not what profiling is. Profiling is about what are the behavioral clues at a crime scene or series of crime scenes that we can try to figure out the type of person who would do this.

So you're focused on crime investigation and crime scene analysis, not reading a person, or you don't form a profile like a blueprint. It's not a blueprint against which you measure people, but that's a common misunderstanding in crime fiction and in crime shows. They'll say things like, he doesn't fit the profile, like, there isn't a profile of this. There's no profile of a serial killer. It's profiling the crime scene to see the kind of person who would do this. It's a very different concept, but there is a confusion, and part of it I will blame the show "Criminal Minds" for, because they used to misuse that concept of, you know, one would come in all tired, "Don't profile me," like, that isn't, that is not what we're talking about, you know, looking at you and trying to figure you out, that's not it at all.

Matty: So, can you describe, just walk through a scenario where the forensic psychologist is looking at the data that's appropriate for their role to be looking at and what kind of information they would and would not be sharing with the investigative team?

Katherine: Okay, well, a suicidologist, like my person, is going to be looking at antecedent behavior. They're going to be specifically looking for state of mind evidence to support or refute the possibility that a death scene is a suicide, and that follows something called the Nash classification: natural, accident, suicide, or homicide.

And if you can't figure out one of those classifications because the circumstances are too ambiguous and they can go more than one way, the forensic psychologist can do a mental state analysis to see what is the probability, based on everything we know, that this person was suicidal. And they're also going to be looking for signals to a staged kind of death incident. So, somebody killed the person and wants to make it look like an accident or suicide. What are some of the indicators that this is, in fact, staged? So, that's what a forensic psychologist could do. They would do what's called a psychological autopsy. And if they don't find a good sense that this person clearly had suicidal intent, or suicidal background, or ideation, they're going to suggest this is an indication that you should be looking in a different direction.

Matty: And that's focused specifically on the individual as opposed to, like, the physical circumstances of the death?

Katherine: You're, no, you're certainly looking at the physical circumstances, because that's the start of it. You're looking, victimology is the collection of facts about the death incident. You're not calling it a crime because you don't know what it is, so where was the person found? You know, what disposition were they found in? How did they die? So, you want cause and effect and mechanism of death. The Nash classification is manner of death, and so you want as much information as possible, but the psychologist is trained to ask people questions specific to suicidal state of mind and to look for signals, because there's a lot of myths out there in society about suicidal people. The suicidologist knows those myths, knows what to look for, and knows when it looks like we might have a staged crime.

Matty: Are there common pitfalls that a killer falls into either in real life or in the fictional world where they're acting on what they think is going to be an effective way of making a death look like a suicide when in fact what they're doing is counter to what a suicidologist would know to be more likely?

Katherine: Yeah, suicide notes are a good giveaway. My character Annie Hunter talks a lot about this because I've done suicide note studies specific to authentic versus faked suicide notes, and there are signals in faked suicide notes. When a killer has written one, they typically follow one of the myths or make a mistake about the decedent and just do odd things. Like, one killer had typed the suicide note. The woman, the decedent, always handwrote everything. She had nothing in her home on which to type anything, and she kept handwritten journals and whatnot. Also, he says something in the note about her new love and she didn't have anybody in her life, and everybody who knew her knew that. So these are all signals and errors that he had made. He assumed that if he staged the body right, the suicide note was going to be helpful. But a lot of people think suicide notes are always there, and they're not. They're only in about 25 percent of suicides, and when they are, they often are nothing like what you expect them to be. They're not explanations for why I do this. They're often instructions or other kinds of things. But people who are faking a suicide note make the wrong assumptions. And those who have studied suicide note content and format can see these things almost very quickly.

Matty: If a fiction writer is concerned about getting this right, are there resources they can go to, to see examples of actual suicide notes?

Katherine: Sure. The study I did is in a book called "The Psychology of Death Investigation." I did that with a coroner where we studied the suicide notes that he had collected over several years. And then we went to a person, the only person in the world who has a database for looking at content in a digital manner. So we had used some of her work as well. So that's right there in that book. You can find them on the internet if you just look up "suicide note," but you're not going to necessarily know the fake ones in terms of what's the difference. You'd have to look at a study like mine to know that. And also there are whole books devoted strictly to the analysis of suicide notes. So they're out there, you just have to go find them.

Mistake #4: They interrogate suspects.

Matty: Another mistake that you had called out that writers often make is that they interrogate suspects. Can you talk a little bit about what you've seen and what the truth is there?

Katherine: This is the notion, I think, that psychologists have some special insight on deception detection. Unless they're really trained well and have done a lot of research on it, they're no better, and neither are detectives, any better than the average person in seeing if somebody's lying. So sometimes you'll see a psychologist being put in place because a detective has just come up short.

So now they need to have the psychologist come in and do the interrogation and get the confession. And that just wouldn't happen. That's fraught with ethical issues and concerns, privacy issues that psychologists don't do that. Now, they might consult on, "Here's the behavior we see. This might be the best approach to this person. Here are some ideas for a strategy." They might do that, but they're not going in there and taking over the interrogation.

Matty: It is interesting when you think about, you know, you hear these things like if people look up and to the left, it means they're lying and things like that.

Katherine: Don't get me started.

Matty: Oh, I'm here to get you started.

Katherine: Exactly where that came from, and that's just silly. And what we do know about deception, there's been some great research on it. Again, this is available, but typically you have to do a search on Google Scholar to get these because they are academic articles.

But we do know that there aren't any clear signals to when someone's lying. You have to first study them for baseline behavior and then look at deviations, behaviors that deviate from that. And that's not necessarily, again, about deception. But those are red flags to now follow further investigation. It's not as simple as it seems. People, I know that detectives are trained on simple formulas, I know that they are, but those are misleading and get them into trouble, actually.

Matty: Have you ever encountered in real life or addressed in your fiction the scenario where an investigator has a feeling about, "I just knew he was lying," and now you have to resolve this into like a viable legal procedure to pursue whether the person is lying or not?

Katherine: Well, I often hear detectives say, "I'm the best lie detector there is." I hear that a lot, but the research doesn't support it. There are two groups that are, in fact, good at deception detection. Secret Service officers, because they're vigilant about that at all times, and gamblers. They are much better than detectives, psychologists, or judges, or parents, for that matter.

Matty: Now, do you think the Secret Service is good because they're picked because they display that ability, or do you...

Katherine: There's certainly ability, but there's training. There is also training, and they do turn up better on the research than other groups, but detectives don't. And the unfortunate thing is if you're too confident of your ability to do that, you can develop tunnel vision, confirmation bias, you know, all the cognitive error pitfalls because you're so confident of your ability, and that can be a problem. But you can turn that clearly into a character trait. It's called high need for closure, and we know a lot about that in the field of psychology. The kind of person who needs that closure and believes in themselves too much can help lead the plot.

Matty: Yeah, I think an interesting companion episode to this conversation would be, I had a conversation with Tiffany Yates Martin, who's an editor, about the pitfalls of magical knowing, and we talked about this idea that our theory was that when fiction writers get themselves into a jam, they sometimes fall back on this, "I just knew it, I just knew that she was lying," or "I just knew that he was such and such," and that oftentimes if you can step back from it a little bit, you can see that there's a much more interesting way of addressing that than, "I just had a feeling," which is a little bit unsatisfying, I think, for a reader.

Katherine: Yeah, and an honest investigator is going to know they can be duped, they can be mistaken, and they are more vigilant to that, and that's more helpful to an investigation.

Mistake #5: They undertake hypnosis or therapy in the courtroom.

Matty: This one was a very interesting one. You said one of the mistakes that you see writers making is that the characters, the forensic psychologists, undertake hypnosis or therapy in the courtroom. Talk about where you see that and why that's a no-no. Which I can understand. Just on the surface of that, that seems suspicious.

Katherine: I saw that in a James Patterson novel. As soon as that happened, I went, oh my God, no, that would never happen. And, you know, his fallback is, it's fiction. You can make it up. Well, you can, and you can do all the things that I'm saying are errors. But I'm saying you can stay true to the way it's done and still write good fiction. You don't have to do something like that. But when a psychologist goes into the courtroom, they're there for typically one of two reasons. Either they have been called upon to analyze, so they are experts to criticize the defendant and provide an opinion on their behavior, mental state, etc. Or they're there as experts to explain difficult concepts to the trier of fact, the jury or judge, depending on what kind of trial you have. So, they're not there to be therapists, they're not there to be advocates for the defendant in any way. And they're not there to demonstrate a methodology on a defendant without anyone knowing what the potential outcome might be. That isn't the way our courtrooms operate. Yes, there's surprise factors, great, but anyone who knows how this is done would stop reading immediately. This is horrible. And especially with hypnosis, it's not even allowed in the courtroom in most of the states. In this country, it's not allowed as part of the case. It used to be, but they have found that hypnosis is highly unreliable, and it plants false memories. I think it's only in New Mexico right now that allows it in a limited context. But if somebody were to do that in the courtroom, for me, as a reader, it's over.

Matty: Yeah. I feel like I see the whole hypnosis thing in the last, I don't know, five years or something like that. I see it more often as something that happens in an unauthorized manner. And then suddenly the investigators are faced with a situation where what they thought was a reliable witness or reliable story has suddenly been called into question because a person, like on their own, went and sought hypnosis or something like that. And now the things that the investigators were relying on that person to testify to, they can't rely on them anymore because they've muddied the water with the hypnosis.

Katherine: Now, there was a training program for law enforcement during the 1980s into the 90s, and Texas was a leader in this, investigative hypnosis. They used it a lot. They trained police officers in it, they trained prison psychologists in it, believing that it was giving them the truth about someone's memory. And now we have a lot more research showing that it just isn't as reliable. And if you're going to use it, there is one case, I think it's Hurd v. New Jersey, that puts the safeguards, shows if you're going to do it, you have to do it in this particular way. And if you do it outside that, then everything that you bring to the case is now suspect.

Matty: You know, one thing. This is not on any of your lists, but it just struck me, because this is a question I wonder about. Right after something happens, when the police interview someone, you know, it's just happened, it's fresh in their minds, and they're going to give us a story about what happened, a true story, perhaps, about what happened from their perspective. And then, you know, maybe the police come back a week later and they ask them again, and a month later and they ask them again. Maybe the thing goes to trial a year later, and they're being asked to answer the question again. And I always thought that if I were in that position of being a witness, let's say, that I would believe that my memory of what happened right after the incident was going to be as fresh as it was going to be, as fresh and as accurate as it was going to be. And I would just keep saying that same story, not because I was trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes, but because I would believe that I was being most accurate by just repeating what I originally said. But you don't see that like in real life and in fiction. You always see people's stories changing over time.

Katherine: You have so much faith in human memory, that what you are repeating, you think, is the same. But I think you would find out it likely has shifted a bit, especially if you've been told, "Oh, that's great, you're doing a good job." Because one of the best stories to demonstrate the problems of memory is the Jennifer Thompson-Ronald Cotton case, where she picked him out as her rapist. She was a young white woman; he was a black man. She was very articulate, she really wanted to do this right. The cops had already picked him out as their chief suspect. Terrible reasons. And they kept, you know, "Atta girl, you're doing great." The more they did that, the more confident she became in her memory. She kept telling the same story, but she became more confident, more confident, and then she picked him. He did look very much like the actual rapist, which she found out later. Ronald Cotton was convicted, went to prison for a lot of years, and then DNA exonerated him. She was horrified. Horrifying. They wrote a book called "Picking Cotton," which I thought was the greatest title for that, and they go around talking about this terrible mistake she made. A lot of it had to do with the way the police handled her, and the fact that they had made up their minds about him and didn't believe any of his alibi witnesses because they already had decided he was the guy, and they subtly manipulated her memory without her realizing over the course of preparation for trial. So that when she saw, and the most interesting part of this, when she found out who the real rapist was, her memory stuck with Ronald Cotton's face. Even though she knew it wasn't him, her memory stuck with him. And that's important. I think memory is such a malleable thing that people should educate themselves on the way memory works. You may really want to do the right thing, you may want to say the same thing over and over as you just said, but over the course of a year, maybe two years before it finally gets to trial, it's very likely you are not going to say the exact same thing you said on the day of the incident.

Matty: Yeah, if I were putting together a list of book ideas, if I needed that, I'd already have like six or seven from our conversation.

Mistake #6: Forensic psychologists pronounce defendants to be sane or insane.

Matty: Another mistake that you called out that writers make is that forensic psychologists pronounce defendants to be sane or insane.

Katherine: Yeah, people really confuse the idea of psychosis and insanity. During the 19th century, medical insanity was psychosis, different forms of psychosis, delusional disorders, schizophrenia, things like that. Over the course of it coming into the courtrooms, it has become a legal term, and it's very specific, and different states have different insanity standards.

But it is specific to whether the person has a disease or defect that prevents them from understanding that what they did was wrong. It gets complicated, but at any rate, it is for the trier of fact to decide if the person is sane or insane, not guilty by reason of insanity. It is not for the mental health expert to say it. They can talk about state of mind, psychotic features, diagnoses, but they're not there to pronounce the legal rendering. Insanity is a legal term. They're not supposed to address the ultimate issue for the courtroom.

Mistake #7: Forensic psychologists can accurately predict long-range future violent behavior without standardized tools.

Matty: And I think that the last question I wanted to ask about was the mistake writers make which is forensic psychologists can accurately predict long-range future violent behavior without standardized tools. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Katherine: Yeah. We try, and everyone seems to think that psychologists have a special insight into whether someone would be violent in the future. And they don't, but there are tools to assist. For prediction, to a certain extent, as long as all the factors in that person's life stay the same, any change is going to throw that whole prediction off. So they use different domains: the person's past history of violence, substance abuse, their association with violent peers, their role models, you know, there's a number of things that they look at, but they need to do it with standardized instruments that have already been proven to give reliable results.

And because if they don't, they could be liable if the person is allowed to leave prison or go on parole, whatever, they could be liable for behavior that that person did if they don't follow best practice standards. But they can only predict so far in like maybe 72 hours from once they leave the clinic or the prison. Anything, there's so many different things that could happen in their lives, that we really can't go very far with this. So, that's their limitation, and they do try to convey that to judges and police officers and whatnot. If somebody's going to be released and that person becomes violent, does something terrible, it's really not on them. They did everything they could within best practice standards. Now, if they didn't do that, like, just sort of, my feeling about this guy is that a woman is that they're gonna, they're gonna be fine and they use their gut clinical instinct. That's, you know, something from the 1960s. And, and wrong quite often. Standardized instruments assist with making careful decisions and taking a lot of factors into account, not just your gut instinct about a person. So it's not just about clinical instinct. It is about using the best tools we have and knowing what the limitations are, and it's very difficult to do. It's probably the most difficult thing a forensic psychologist is called on to do.

Matty: Is the forensic psychologist usually a consultant that an investigative arm like the police department brings in, or are there circumstances where a police department would employ a forensic psychologist? What is the organizational relationship there?

Katherine: Usually it's only in very large departments that have the funds to be able to hire someone like that. What they will do is fitness for duty exams, post-incident stress disorders. I mean, they have a specific set of duties. They're not profilers. That's not what they're there for. They are there specific to the mental condition of the officers and the staff. They're a staff person, essentially, or they might work in a prison, something like that. They, however, might be called in by attorneys to do assessments. So that's how they might get into a case, and that's an entrepreneurial thing. It's not a job for them, but they might get into a case for that. So now they're clinical forensic psychologists. They might be called in as consultants, but not very often, because the FBI does offer services for free from their profiling program, and not many departments have the funds to pay someone. Now, I have done consulting as a quid pro quo. I get case details I can teach in my classes in exchange for consulting on some of the suicide cases that I've done.

So it really has a lot to do with what resources do they have? What is their need? I remember one officer called me and said, "Our chief wants us to call the FBI profilers, but give me your opinion, what would they really say about this case that we're working on?" I wouldn't be able to say very much about it because there's not much behavior there at this point. So that's what I thought. And, you know, so his instinct was right about it. The profilers aren't, you know, magical, larger-than-life geniuses who can come in and offer the most amazing opinions on a case. They have to always work with behavior. So a psychologist will typically develop relationships with the local police officers, but they're probably not going to be called in very often on cases because, you know, they don't really need... you know, you're not going to get these thorny cases that often. Now, what you may get are people who are out in the community, and they're not well cared for by our system. They might be homeless, or they might, you know, we, we at this point don't hold people who might become dangerous unless they're imminently a threat, like imminently a threat. Not just maybe they're a threat or they're voicing threats. They have to be an imminent danger to self or others in order to be held for observation for a certain period of time, usually two or three days.

So those people might blow up all... you know, have a fight with their family members. We had one guy who killed both of his parents and then went down to the police department, and they knew he was potentially violent, but they could not do anything because it wasn't imminently violent. It was an explosive incident that couldn't have been predicted. So in a case like that, a psychologist might be asked to give advice. How do you, how do we deal with this? Because our hands are tied in terms of bringing them in and enforcing them into an observation situation. We, we can't, we used to be able to do that, and many mistakes were made holding people against their will, and they weren't in danger of being violent. So, I'm teaching like two weeks' worth of class here in five minutes, but it's a very complex and thorny issue, and I think for writers it can, the potential is there for a lot of great plot points and character points.

Matty: I'm just curious as to how the role, how the job has changed with social media, because now there is so much more potential fodder for documentation of a person's behavior that wasn't there 10, 15, 20 years ago. Is examining somebody's social media persona considered a valid part of forensic psychology?

Katherine: Yes, it definitely is. Any behavior, any layer of behavior. Now, you're going to run into privacy issues, so they are going to have to be working with somebody with a warrant or, you know, some good reason why the social media is being examined, but any of that would be useful, certainly.

Matty: So if someone is putting something out, you know, videos on Facebook or whatever, is there a legal, like, "I need to get a search warrant" kind of thing about that? Or if it's put out there publicly, can any investigator take advantage of it?

Katherine: It's still that same imminent threat, imminent danger. Just because somebody's venting, or even showing themselves with guns or whatever, doesn't mean they're going to do something, and you can't just go in and stop them. But we have risk levels, like low, medium, high risk. If they have a date and they name the Columbine killers and they have a location and they start giving details about how they've prepared for it, their risk of acting out rises. And yes, the police can go and bring them in because now they are an imminent threat to someone: the school system, the workplace, their family, whatever. But they've demonstrated with sufficient detail that they are planning, and they're putting a plan into motion, and they have the means to do it, and they have the mental set to do it. And there have been a number of these mass shooters stopped because of their social media kinds of things. And we also have examples of some who could have been stopped had the police looked at their social media. Because it was right there, what they were going to do, and how they were going to do it. And we need police to be more trained in cyber investigation.

Matty: Yeah, I can imagine that that's a whole thorny issue that if you are looking with 20/20 hindsight at someone who's done something horrible and you look at their social media feed and you see them making threats, then it seems very obvious. But then if you look at the other 99 percent of the people who said exactly the same thing, made exactly the same threats, made exactly the same kind of video, that didn't do anything.

Katherine: It didn't, right? And that's the problem. And it takes a certain critical mass before you can act and justify your actions as warranted. And if somebody's calling the police saying, "Hey, I saw this guy posting on social media, he's got a grudge list, you know, I'm named on the grudge list, he's got guns, I've seen them," they can go in and do something about that. But just because someone's venting, and which we have a lot of now with our political situation, just because someone's venting and showing themselves trying to look powerful and whatnot, you know, there's not a lot they can do, and that's our laws that keep them from doing that. The civil rights of the people come, to some extent, before safety. You know, it's just, what's the balance? Public safety versus people's rights, individual rights. It's unclear. There is no formula for knowing when it's the right thing to do to go in and try to intervene.

Matty: Well, I'd say if any fiction writer was looking for crime fiction-related topics to address and we haven't given them about a dozen possible ideas for stories, then they're just not paying attention. So, Katherine, thank you so much. This was so interesting. I appreciate you talking about this so much, and please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.

Katherine: Okay, well, actually, my website is devoted to the crime fiction series that I'm writing, the Annie Hunter series. I set up a website specific to that. That's KatherineRamsland.net. My other books are more true crime and real forensics related, but you can find everything on Amazon pretty much. And actually, I have book number 73 done this week, and that's a book for my horse.
Matty: Well, that's fantastic. Congratulations on that because that is an astounding number, and to add another one, another book to that number, is very impressive.

Katherine: Thank you.

Matty: Thanks so much.

Matty Dalrymple 6/4/24 Matty Dalrymple 6/4/24

Episode 241 - Mistakes Writers Make About Working K-9s and How to Avoid Them with Kathleen Donnelly

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Kathleen Donnelly discusses MISTAKES WRITERS MAKE ABOUT WORKING K-9s AND HOW TO AVOID THEM, including whether a dog can track across water or track a person in a car; whether one scent can be disguised with another; what makes it difficult for a dog to track and how to evade tracking dogs (maybe); training rescue and human remains dogs; training the alert signal; identifying candidate dogs; when training starts; the role of the handler; what happens if a dog flunks out; the caveat that every agency is different; and how to get more information.

Award-winning author Kathleen Donnelly has been a handler for Sherlock Hounds Detection Canines—a Colorado-based narcotics K-9 company—since 2005. Her debut novel, CHASING JUSTICE, won the American Book Fest Best Book Award and a PenCraft Award, and it was a 2023 Silver Falchion finalist in the Suspense category and Readers’ Choice Award. She lives near the Colorado foothills with her husband and four-legged coworkers.

Episode Links

https://kathleendonnelly.com/
https://www.facebook.com/AuthorKathleenDonnelly
https://www.instagram.com/authorkathleendonnelly/
https://twitter.com/KatK9writer

Summary

Kathleen Donnelly, an award-winning author and experienced canine handler for Sherlock Hounds Detection Canines, shared her expertise on The Indy Author Podcast, discussing the intricacies of working with narcotics detection dogs and the common misconceptions about them in literature. This discussion was part of a series focusing on crime fiction writing, where experts talk about realistic portrayals of various professional fields.

Key Themes and Discussions:
1. Canine Training Variability: Donnelly emphasized the differences in training techniques across agencies, highlighting that while her dogs are play trained (rewarded with toys), others, like ATF dogs, might be food trained. This underscores the importance for writers to research specific agency practices to enhance the authenticity of their narratives.

2. Myths about Canine Tracking Abilities: She debunked popular myths about canine tracking, particularly the Hollywood portrayal of dogs losing scent trails in water. Contrary to this, Donnelly illustrated with examples that dogs can effectively track through water and even follow a scent after the tracked individual has taken a vehicle, a skill dependent on advanced training and the dog's capabilities.

3. Challenges in Canine Tracking: Tracking accuracy can be affected by environmental factors such as wind and urban settings, where scents can be dispersed unpredictably. Donnelly also discussed how heavy foot traffic can complicate tracking, but trained dogs can often handle these challenges.

4. Types of Work for Different Dog Breeds: The conversation touched on choosing appropriate breeds for different types of jobs. For instance, labs and beagles are often used in non-intimidating roles like bomb detection or searching for food at airports due to their friendly appearance, whereas breeds like German Shepherds or Malinois might be chosen for more aggressive roles.

5. Operational and Ethical Training Considerations: She covered the ethical considerations and legal boundaries of using detection dogs, especially in sensitive environments like schools, underlining the need to respect privacy and legal limits. Donnelly also mentioned that the Supreme Court rulings influence how and where dogs can be used, especially concerning personal searches.

Significant Data or Findings:
- Canines possess an extraordinary sense of smell, capable of distinguishing individual components within a complex scent profile, such as identifying drugs hidden among other strong odors like coffee, a fact that dispels another common myth.
- Advanced training techniques have evolved to meet operational needs, such as teaching dogs to continue tracking even after a subject enters a vehicle, which historically would end the trail.

Overall Implications and Conclusions:
The discussion highlighted the complexity and depth of training and deploying detection dogs, pointing out the need for rigorous training regimes tailored to specific operational goals. For writers, this translates into a necessity for detailed research to portray these animals realistically in crime fiction. Donnelly’s insights serve as a crucial resource for understanding the nuances of canine behavior and training, providing rich material for enhancing narrative authenticity.

Notable Quote:
Kathleen Donnelly pointed out, "If you really want the dog to miss something, you need to pay off the handler," humorously hinting at the dogs' infallible nature unless human error—or manipulation—intervenes. This reflects the high level of reliability in trained canines, making them invaluable in law enforcement and search and rescue operations.

Transcript

Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indie Author Podcast today. My guest is Kathleen Donnelly. Hey Kathleen, how are you doing?

Kathleen: Hey, I'm doing well. Thanks for having me today.

Meet Kathleen Donnelly

Matty: It is my pleasure. To give our listeners and viewers a bit of background on you, award-winning author Kathleen Donnelly has been a handler for Sherlock Hounds Detection Canines, a Colorado-based narcotics canine company, since 2005. Her debut novel "Chasing Justice" won the American Book Fest Best Book Award and a PenCraft Award. It was also the 2023 Silver Faus finalist in the suspense category and won a Reader's Choice Award. She lives near the Colorado foothills with her husband and four-legged coworkers. I recently interviewed Kathleen for my video series, "What I Learned," where she shared some of the lessons from her novel, "Killer Secrets," that she'd like to share with her fellow readers and writers.

Matty: As we talked, I realized Kathleen would be a perfect addition to my informal mini-series for everyone who reads or writes crime fiction, mistakes writers make, and how to avoid them. In the past, I've chatted with experts about firearms, police procedure, coroners, first responders, the FBI, PIs, forensic psychiatry, police roles, bladed weapons, and firefighters.

Matty: Kathleen is going to add to that list by talking about mistakes writers make about canines and how to avoid them. Any conversation about canines is good with me, so I think this is going to be super fun. Kathleen, you and I were chatting a bit before we started recording, and you mentioned there was a caveat you wanted to add to what we were going to discuss. Did you want to share that?

Every agency is different

Kathleen: Sure, I'll kick off with that because I've realized over the years as I've talked to writers about canines, who are trying to research and get it right, is that every agency is a little different. For example, I play train my dogs, which means they get a toy as a reward, whereas the ATF food trains. That's just one example of many where, if you're researching for your book and you want to expand on it, you should reach out to each individual agency you want to use. If you're going to use the ATF, reach out to them and find out how they train their dogs and just things like that. This will be a great way to give you some starting points and some great questions to be able to reach out to those agencies and find out.

Matty: And within an agency like the ATF, is that the standard, like, if you're writing something about ATF, can you assume that's the approach you take, or would different branches of the ATF perhaps use different procedures?

Kathleen: You know, that's a great question. And that's a great example of where I'm not a hundred percent certain because the bomb dogs are the ones that are for sure food trained, but I believe the ATF also has some dual-purpose dogs, meaning those dogs have more than one job. So usually that includes apprehension. For a bomb dog, it could involve tracking.

And so those dogs might actually be trained differently. Usually, the apprehension dogs are trained based on their prey drive and that sort of thing. So that's a great example of figuring out what you want your dog to do, and then reaching out and seeing if you can connect with someone.

Matty: So, you had kindly sent me a list of some of the mistakes writers make that we're going to be talking about.

Can a dog track across water?

Matty: And the first one was a question I had asked you about during our conversation for "What I Learned," and that was: Can a fugitive cross a creek and have the dog not be able to follow them because the water masks the scent?

Kathleen: Yes, this is a good one. I'm going to pick on Hollywood because you see this all the time in movies where a fugitive runs down a creek bed and the dogs can't find them. That's absolutely not true. Dogs can track amazingly well through water. Our trainer once told me about a bloodhound he had in training. They were running a practice track and he instructed the person to run straight down the creek bed for maybe an eighth of a mile. It wasn't a huge distance, but it was significant. Then the person exited on the other side, and the dog followed the track perfectly.

He went in right where the person entered, followed down the creek bed, and interestingly, the dog dipped his nose into the water, scenting down in there before coming back up and exiting the creek right where the person did. So that was really amazing. It's definitely a myth that dogs can't track through water. In fact, there are cadaver dogs, or as I call them, human remains dogs, which we discussed a bit in "Killer Secrets." Some of these dogs are certified for water recovery. If there is a victim who has drowned, the dog will go out on a boat, lean over the side, and alert when they detect the person's scent. Divers then know roughly where to dive and recover the remains. It's amazing that dogs can detect scents through water and even from deep in a lake. So, that's definitely a myth.

Can a dog track a person in a car?

Matty: Yeah, the other thing that reminds me of, which makes sense to me, but I'm curious about your perspective on, is whether a dog can follow a scent to a certain point where it then disappears because the person got in a car and drove away. Is that true? In that case, would a scent trail just end suddenly or would it kind of peter out? How does that work?

Kathleen: That is another great question because I actually asked our trainer about that. You do hear about cases where the dog tracked to a point, then the person got in a vehicle, they left, and the track was over. Our trainer, who also worked as a deputy and a canine handler, told me that for a long time they just never trained the dogs to keep following that track.

So the dog would think, "Okay, this is what I'm trained to do. I get to the end of the track. There's the end." They're starting to realize they need to actually add into the training that the dog should continue following the track from a vehicle. So, it's not that they can't do it; it's more a matter of training. Bloodhounds, for example, would receive more of this type of training. They track for miles and miles. Their big floppy ears, when they put their nose down, help push the scent up into their noses, and their wrinkles hold the scent, allowing them to track for miles. I once read about a bloodhound that tracked for 130 miles following a kidnapping victim who had been picked up and driven away. They're certainly very capable of doing it. It's just a matter of ensuring the training supports it, and I believe that has changed. You're going to see more of that where dogs do follow tracks.

Matty: It does seem as if, at least, it would make sense to me, from a completely novice point of view, that the dog would reach the point where the person got into a vehicle, and then at least somehow indicate what direction the vehicle went in. You can imagine there would be all sorts of interesting tension to be built up on that. Now the investigator knows they headed west afterwards, and whether that's true or not true, knowing that's a possibility opens up some fun options.

What makes it difficult for a dog to track?

Kathleen: It does. It definitely does. Environmental factors, mostly wind, can make it hard for a dog to maintain a track. For instance, if a person is walking along a road, the scent might be blown onto the shoulder, making it harder for the dog to track accurately.

Another challenge is tracking in urban environments with heavy traffic. The airflow from vehicles can swirl around, scattering the scent and making it difficult for the dog to maintain the track. However, a good trainer will train dogs in these tough conditions so that they learn to sort through these challenges. They really are amazing. I've worked my dogs in windy conditions around vehicles to see if there's narcotics, and despite concerns about the wind direction, the dogs have always been spot on because we train in those situations. As a handler, you learn how to work through these challenges.

Another reason dogs might lose a track is if a lot of people walk over it, especially if the dogs are trained to find the hottest scent. For example, if someone unknown robbed a store and fled, the dog could track the most recent scent. As long as there isn’t a lot of foot traffic over the scent, the dog can successfully track it. I've heard stories of dogs tracking right to criminals' front doors.

Matty: So, that's what's fun about it when it comes to our books. We can add in as much conflict or make it as easy as we want, depending on what we need to happen in the story.

Kathleen: Exactly.

Matty: The whole idea that people are shown presenting some kind of article of clothing or something that belonged to the person they're trying to track, is that in fact how it works?

Kathleen: Yes, that's another method of tracking, called using a scent article. If, for example, someone was hiking in the mountains and didn't return, a jacket from their car might be used as a scent article to guide the dogs. You can keep having the dogs smell the scent article, and they can continue tracking it. There are essentially two different methods of tracking. In my books, I chose to make my fictional dog capable of both methods. In real life, most police agencies will have the dogs track the hottest scent, while most search and rescue teams will use a scent article. But for fiction and book purposes, I liked incorporating both methods. I even consulted a canine trainer from one of our local agencies, and he mentioned that he has used both methods with his law enforcement dogs, depending on the dog.

Training Rescue and Human Remains Dogs

Matty: It's interesting you were talking earlier about human remains dogs. I've always been curious about whether these dogs, if they were sent to an earthquake zone or a similar disaster area and it was assumed to be a recovery effort, would respond if they encountered a person still alive. Do the dogs react to that at all?

Kathleen: That's a great question. I believe they would. Many of those dogs, such as FEMA dogs, are trained to detect both live scents—people who are still alive—and deceased individuals. They train the dogs this way because the goal is to find everyone, and certainly, finding someone who's still alive is an amazing outcome.

A lot of the true cadaver dogs, or human remains dogs, vary depending on the agency. I was discussing this with my friend who helps me with "Killer Secrets," and she mentioned that it also depends on whether they are being used for law enforcement purposes, where you might have to testify in court. In those cases, they try to keep the dogs primarily trained to find just human remains.

That being said, I think the dogs know what they are tracking and what they are trying to find. It's certainly a possibility that they could detect live humans as well during their searches. I wouldn't rule it out. But definitely, the rescue recovery dogs—those working in situations like 9/11 or any FEMA operation—are trained to detect both live people and deceased remains.

Matty: And do you know how they train cadaver dogs?

Kathleen: I do. It varies. Our trainer in Oklahoma told me about his experiences. He used to go to the local hospital, where they knew he was a dog trainer. He would tell them what he needed, and they would give him items like bloody gauze or even some fingers and other things like that.

He mentioned once driving home, thinking about everything he had in his trunk, and realizing he would have a lot of explaining to do if he got pulled over.

Matty: That right there is a story. If anyone's searching for a story to write, there you go.

Kathleen: It is. It's part of what prompted "Killer Secrets," that story. But nowadays, things are different. He was probably training around 15-20 years ago when hospitals weren't so regulated.

Now, my understanding is you have to put in a special request. There are labs where you can get human remains like bone, tissue, blood—anything you're trying to teach the dog to find. When we pass away, our scent changes, so the remains will smell different whether we're alive or deceased. They need tissue from someone who is deceased, bones from someone who is deceased. You can apply for a special permit or regulation, get the materials, and then, you apparently need a separate freezer. Of course, you would want a separate freezer; you don't want that with your other stuff, but it's locked and marked specifically.

Matty: Yeah, and I realize it's not really like you could use roadkill or something like that, because you don't want to train the dog to find every dead chipmunk that happens to be in the bushes to the side of the path; it has to be very specific.

Kathleen: It does, and those would have a different odor. So, yes, you want to be sure they test. I would think when they certify, they're going to put out the human remains that the dog should be finding, and then maybe some things like roadkill, to make sure the dog is alerting on the correct thing. You could be affecting a case, a search and rescue operation, or a recovery operation.

So, those dogs really do have to be spot on.

Training the Alert Signal

Matty: When a dog alerts, is it the case that the trainer trains the dog to do a certain thing, or is it the trainer watching for a signal that's specific to that dog and just recognizing that that's the dog's way of alerting?

Kathleen: Great question. When the dogs are trying to find something, let's say drugs, their body language will change as they start catching an odor. This is true whether they're tracking a criminal, a human remains dog, or any other type of dog. We say they're "in odor." Their body language changes; they become more tense, their tails go up. It's something you have to get to know with each dog, but I can tell when my dogs are sniffing another dog or when they've found the scent of marijuana.

From there, once the dog is trained, you teach them how you want them to indicate. There are two types of alerts: passive and active. A passive alert could be the dog sitting or laying down. An active alert is where the dog will scratch. More and more, I don't see as many agencies using active alert dogs because it destroys evidence. We had some active alert dogs that left scratches on vehicles. Most of the time we found something, and it was like, "Well, you shouldn't have had marijuana at school, so you have to live with the scratches." But there was one time we didn't find anything, and we ended up paying for that car to be buffed out and repainted because the little dog who did that was quite an intense little lab and left quite a few scratches.

So, most of the time, my dogs are all passive alert now, especially in law enforcement, to make sure they're not scratching and messing up evidence. One of our trainers, who worked for the Colorado County Department and was a deputy, had her dog lay down to indicate he found evidence and sit to indicate he found narcotics. I thought that was just so amazing, so I stole that and put it in my book. The credit goes to her and her training because that was something I didn't know she did. I should ask her sometime.

Matty: How do you go about training the dog to recognize what you want them to be alerting on? For example, for drugs, are canines just trained for drugs generally or for a specific type of drug? I would think early on they would be excited about almost everything.

Kathleen: Yes, when you start training a young dog, there's always a phase where they get excited about everything and want their toys. They think, "Oh, I'll just alert here and maybe I'll get it."

Identifying Candidate Dogs

Kathleen: But to back up, we look for certain characteristics before we even start training. Those characteristics are extremely high energy. I always laugh when I test dogs that are supposed to be high energy, and I'm like, no, your dog is not high energy. Fetching the ball twice isn't good enough. We need a dog who will fetch it 20 times, or just hold the ball and catch their breath before you throw it for them again. That's the kind of dog we're looking for. They have to be comfortable with different floor surfaces and willing to get up on things like couches or tables. I'm sure when I tested different rescues, the people working there didn't like it because I'd be asking, "Are you willing to get up on this couch? Will you put your paws up on the table?" But we need them to be comfortable with that.

Once I know they will pass all those tests, I see if they have a high retrieve drive, if they are obsessed with their toy, and then I start teaching them that finding a specific odor means their toy will be there. For example, I might take some marijuana because it's a stinky odor and easy for them to start with. I associate the toy with the odor, making it easy at first: "Hey, go find it. Oh, there’s your toy right there." Then I gradually make it more challenging. They have to track the scent up high, down low, in grass, and in the wind—different environments until they learn to use their nose effectively.

Once they get that part down, then I start teaching them the indication, like they have to sit before getting their toy. I laugh because my older yellow lab, Willow, throughout her career, would act as if she was saying, "I know where it is. Just give me my toy." Legally, we need them to sit and indicate, which I always had to work on with her. At school, she’d sniff, look at me, and roll her eyes as if to say, "Fine, I’ll sit."

Matty: Be that way.

Kathleen: Exactly, she was the only one over the years who ever really thought that process through. It was really interesting. I even had her hips checked to make sure she wasn't sore, but no, she just knew she found it and should get her toy.

Matty: She was negotiating.

Kathleen: She was very much a negotiator. So that's an overview of the training process. There are a lot of different things involved, but that's the gist of it.

When Does Training Start?

Matty: And how old is a dog normally? Like, when would you start training a dog? And at what point would you feel like now, yes, this is a dog who can operate productively in a real-life scenario?

Kathleen: Yeah, so we always looked for them when they were about a year old, because by then their personalities and behavior are pretty much in place. If they have a high retrieve drive, they're probably always going to have a high retrieve drive. I went to a lot of rescues, because I always felt like those dogs ended up in a rescue because they're very difficult to live with.

So I'm laughing because I'm like, yeah, we have rules in our house because they are not easy to live with. But I have heard, for example, Boulder County Sheriff received a bloodhound puppy as a donation and they started him young. He just certified, I think he's a year and a half old now, and he just finished his certification. It sounds like his handler did lots of little games with him through puppyhood, but you don't always know if they're going to keep the characteristics you need. Some of them actually lose that retrieve drive. They calm down. You know, you always hear people say, "Oh, he's still acting like a puppy, but now he calmed down." Well, we don't want ours to calm down.

Matty: So do you not want them to calm down because they might be in a situation where they're going to need to keep going for a long time? Or is the fact of them being that energetic indicative of some deeper characteristic that's desirable for dogs doing this work?

Kathleen: Yeah, it's a little bit of both. It's the drive. It's when they're that energetic, they have really good drive. They have that prey drive. They just want to go out there and work, work, work, and do something. It is also indicative of how long they're going to be able to work. Now, that being said, even the most high-energy dogs are going to need a break. As their handler, you get to know them and you have to respect their limitations. But, I had a dog named Gracie, and she would just be working for an hour. I'd be like, "You need a break." And she'd look at me like, "No, I don’t." I'd make her take a 10-minute break.

And then she was right back out there like, "Okay." Most dogs aren't quite like that; she was a bit of an exception to the rule. Most of the dogs, you know, need breaks after 20, 30 minutes, at least for what we do, but yeah, you want that high prey drive.

Can One Scent Be Disguised with Another?

Matty: And, this is sort of looping back to an earlier point you made about using marijuana because it has a very distinctive odor. There's also this trope of packing drugs in coffee beans or something like that. Can you talk about that a bit? Is that a mistake writers make, or is it true?

Kathleen: You know, it is not true that you can hide it in coffee beans or anything like that. I always say, if you really want the dog to miss something, you need to pay off the handler. Because if you're writing a mystery and you want your dog to miss something, maybe the handler's not on the up and up, because we can mess up and pull them off a scent.

But dogs have an amazing olfactory system. When they smell, I always use the analogy: we walk into a pizza parlor, and we're like, "Oh, it smells like pizza." The dogs would walk in and be like, "Oh, I smell dough, flour, yeast," they smell all the ingredients in the dough individually. "I smell the sauce, I smell the cheese, I smell the pepperoni." So when you hide drugs in coffee, they would come up, smell the coffee, and be like, "I smell coffee. I smell meth. I'm going to alert." There's no way to cover up that odor. So that is a common myth.

It was really funny. We subscribed for years to a magazine called "High Times." There was an ad in there, and the reason we subscribed is we try to keep up on different stash containers because the dogs might alert and it's the human who misses it.

Kathleen: There are stash containers. "High Times" is an interesting magazine, and they had a lot of advertisements for different ways to stash drugs. We saw an ad once that said, "canine proof plastic bags." We thought, well, we got to order these. We have to see what's canine proof. So we ordered them and they came and my business partner and I were like, "This kind of just looks like Ziploc baggies, but let's see how canine proof they are."

We hid something in them and the dogs found it instantly. So, I hate to break it to anyone who bought those baggies and no, sorry "High Times," but they were not canine proof.

Matty: The distribution lists you must be on.

Kathleen: I know, I was like, I'm probably on some watch list. My husband always jokes that he hates going to the airport with me because I'm probably on some watch list.

Matty: Yeah,

Kathleen: Between the book research and the drug dogs, you know, he's certain.

How to Evade Tracking Dogs (Maybe)

Matty: Well, these questions about what can and can't throw a dog off a scent are interesting because I live in Chester County, Pennsylvania, outside Philadelphia, and a while ago there was a guy who escaped from a person in the area. He evaded the police for, I think, like two weeks. They would catch him on trail cams and things like that. He was spending some time in Longwood Gardens, which is a huge botanical garden in the area, and they did have dogs trying to track him. I thought, "Oh well, the dogs are on the case now, like how long is he going to be out there?" but he was still out there for a really long time, and I never heard anything about what the explanation was for how that happened, but if someone is a fugitive and they're trying to avoid the tracking dogs, do you have any tips for them on how they can do that?

Kathleen: I would say I wouldn't go in a straight line. I would be weaving around a lot. Try to make that dog really work, having to keep up with you. Maybe going over fences and back over, and it's not that the dogs can't track it, but you're just making them work harder. If you go in a straight line, that's much easier. They're just like, "Oh yeah, I got you. I'll be on it." You could, I have to think about how to say this, so you could even go up in a tree or something like that. Now the dogs will still find you. Your scent molecules will drop down. You shed skin cells; those are going to drop down. But if you stayed there and then left again before the dogs came, your scent pool might just be there. And they might think, "Oh, they're up here." So I need to stop here. And then that handler needs to cast the dog out again and get back on the track. Sometimes as a handler, I can tell you, it's just trying to figure out where to start.

So if they didn't know exactly where he was, the trail cams probably helped. My guess is if they caught him on the trail cam, they would be like, "Okay, let's at least take the dog there. See what we have going." And my other question would be, not knowing the case or the dogs or anything like that, is if it's in an area, again, with a lot of foot traffic, that can mess things up, but maybe it wasn't.

Matty: Yeah, not in this case. I really hope that somebody writes a book about it because it was fascinating. They even had video of him, you know, in retrospect, when they realized he was gone, they looked back at the video. His name was Cavalcante. I can't remember his first name, but they had video of him.

He climbed up, there was a brick wall, and he put his hands on one wall and his feet on the other, and he kind of Spider-Man'd up between the walls and then got on the roof and somehow from the roof got over the fence. It cracked me up because I kind of hope somebody in a position of authority hears this, but the law enforcement officer who was directing the whole search and rescue thing kept saying, "You know, this guy isn't smart. He thinks he's smart, but he's not." And I'm like, "Dude, don't say that because you've been looking for him now for 10 days and haven't found him." So if he's not smart, that's probably not the message you want to be sending out to people about the people who are trying to track him down. But it was fascinating.

I do think that it was dogs that eventually did help. I mean, I know there was a dog on the case when they did finally, you know, he had fallen asleep after two weeks on the run, he had fallen asleep and they happened upon him while he was actually sleeping. But it was a fascinating story. I hope somebody delves into more detail about that.

Kathleen: That does sound fascinating. And now that you said he went up on roofs and stuff like that, that would be, that's about as good as you're going to get. To not get rid of the scent, but make it harder. You're making it a lot harder on the dogs to track that scent.

Matty: Yeah,

Kathleen: Yeah,

Matty: Yeah, I guess it would be, yeah, well, I'm waiting for the book to come out. Maybe I'll start writing it myself.

Kathleen: You should go for it. I want to read your book on it.

Matty: We've been talking a lot about labs, but oftentimes you hear shepherds or shepherd mixes being dogs that are doing this, but then you also see, like, beagles at the airport sniffing baggage on the baggage carousel.

So, how do people match the breed of dog with the type of work that they want them to do?

Kathleen: That's a great question. So you really have to think about the job you want. And so, for instance, in our case, a drug dog could be a shepherd, it could be a Malinois, it could be a lab. I had a Russell Terrier, who was one of the best drug dogs I ever had.

Matty: I can believe that. As a person with a terrier, I believe that.

Kathleen: Oh, he was fantastic. I called him my undercover agent.

Matching Dog Breeds to Work Roles

Kathleen: He had more drug busts, and I don't know, I feel like it was just because he was that exceptional, but sometimes, too, I think people didn't take him seriously. And so then maybe they didn't see it.

It's just a terrier. But it really comes down to, in our case, we're going into schools and businesses and we want to be non-intimidating. So we have the labs, we have the terriers we've used over the years because, again, if you saw Sparky, you're not intimidated by him.

He was my little terrier, Sparky. But if you brought in a dog like the Malinois behind me on my book cover, all of a sudden you're a little more at attention, right? You're like, "Oh, I better stand a little straighter." That's a little more intimidating. That dog might bite me. That dog might be trained to do something like that.

So, law enforcement often has the more intimidating breeds because they need that. Because when they find someone who's been on the run for two weeks, they need a dog that is going to convince someone just to say, "Okay, never mind." And they need a dog who, when they do bite, is going to help them get control and make a suspect become compliant, because you're not deploying a dog to bite or apprehend someone unless something's really going wrong. Your average arrest is not going to have a dog hanging off of someone's arm. So when you think about the scale of what police officers use as far as just being in uniform and their presence to all the way up to an officer-involved shooting, the dogs are actually pretty high up on that scale.

And if you're deploying a dog, that officer is in a really dangerous situation, and it's not something you normally do. So you need the really intimidating dogs who are quite happy to go out and bite someone and hang on to that bite and help until they can get a suspect in handcuffs and everyone's safe.

So breeds really vary. I mean, you know, little Sparky, he thought he was tough, but he's not going to go out and take down a big criminal. But a Malinois will. So that is definitely something to research. A lot of bomb dogs are labs. And I think it's because they're out in public places. You see them at the Super Bowl.

You see them at our baseball games or football games, with the professional sports and they're in with the public. You want them to be non-intimidating. TSA, I've seen them use pointers, I've seen them use labs. The Beagles come into play a lot of times at airports for food.

They're really good at finding food. They're not always the best drug dogs, which is interesting to me, but they love finding food. They're little food hounds. So you see them a lot at customs, and you see them finding things coming in. You know, the USDA has pretty strict regulations about what can come into our country from other countries. They're right there, checking everything, making sure everyone's on the up and up. So yeah.

What Happens If a Dog Flunks Out?

Matty: And how about what happens when a dog flunks out of a program? What would cause that? And then what happens to that animal?

Kathleen: So we've had a couple flunkouts over the years. The first one we had was a border collie mix. He was smart enough to say he would check like 10 lockers. And you have to understand when we go into a school, we're probably going to check 500 lockers. I mean, it depends on how often they alert, but if you're just going through, you're checking a lot.

So he would check like 10, 20 lockers and then just say, "If you lost it, you should find it." So his nose was great, his drive was great, he just was like, "I don't need to keep working for something you lost."

Matty: That's interesting.

Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, you think of border collies as being kind of obsessively driven to work more and more. And that's why we thought when we found him, "Oh, this is going to be a great dog. He's a lab-border collie mix. He's got that border collie drive, you know, he's going to be fantastic." Well, he wasn't. So we found a home for him. He actually ended up living with our dog massage therapist who works on all our dogs.

So maybe he was the smartest out of everyone because he got to go live with her and probably got massages all the time. So he'd probably tell my dogs, "See how much smarter I was." And then we've had some that just couldn't handle the environment of a school. You go into a middle school and you have kids who get really excited to see dogs.

The Role of the Handler

Kathleen: One of the things I focus on, particularly during community outreach, is teaching kids how to properly approach a dog. The kids get really excited, they see my dogs, and they come running up. And I'm like, "Well, just stop. Let me teach you how to properly approach a dog you don't know, especially a working dog." We do allow the kids to pet our dogs. But our dogs have to handle that situation, which can be a lot of stress, and not every dog can handle it. So, we had another one flunk out. He never got aggressive; he was just scared. And I don't blame him; I told him middle schoolers can be scary.

Matty: I agree with that.

Kathleen: So, we found a home for him, and he was quite happy just being a dog. They do flunk out once in a while, but we've been pretty lucky over the years that most of them have worked out.

Matty: It's always interesting to see, every once in a while, I'll run across an article about service dogs, like seeing-eye dogs who don't make the cut, fail the bunny test or whatever, and then are offered for adoption as a pet. And I think that's probably the best-behaved pet you could get, except maybe they know how to open the refrigerator or something like that.

Kathleen: They are. We've had some interesting experiences with retired dogs because when they're working, part of the reason they can't just live in the house like a pet is because I can't scold them if they get up on the couch or check the counter—that's part of their training. So it's funny, we'll have people over for the holidays or something, and the family has even learned. The first time a dog jumped up, put his front paws on the counter, someone was ready to correct him, and I said, "Oh, good job! Good checking!" And then I said, "Okay, now leave it and let's go outside."

Kathleen: Because, you know, we even caught little Sparky. He was so funny. We learned that when he was retired and loose in the house, we had to push the chairs in at our table. Otherwise, he knew how to jump up on the chair, then onto the table. My husband came in one day and caught him trotting around the table, cleaning up crumbs. And then he saw my husband and froze, like "you don't see me."

Matty: Oh, he knew he was being naughty.

Kathleen: He knew. We had been working with him on, "You don't do this anymore." But, you know, when he was working, we were at a middle school dance and the drinks had been spiked. I put them up on the table, and he went down the table indicating, "This drink, this drink." Because we train our dogs to find alcohol, which is important since we work in schools, and he was like, "This drink is spiked, and this one, and this one." So, he had done that throughout his career and thought, "Well, why should this change?"

Matty: It's funny. It would be difficult to have him at a cocktail party. He'd be wanting to turn everybody in.

Kathleen: It was.

Matty: I also want to ask about the human side of this. So, in your circumstance where you're going to schools with a dog looking for drugs or alcohol, what training do the people have? Not specific to the dogs, but to the people in the environment. So, if you're searching lockers and there's a group of middle school kids hanging around and the dog alerts at a locker, how do you handle that situation as you manage the dynamics with the other people there?

Kathleen: There are a lot of factors. One is the handler has to go through a lot of certification and training just to work the dog. The second part of that certification and training is understanding what you can and can't do regarding Fourth Amendment rights within the school setting. For example, if there were a group of kids around hanging around the lockers, and this is specific to a school setting, so if anyone's using this video for research, I would probably wait for those kids to leave or I would go somewhere else. The reason for that is our dogs do not alert on people because the Supreme Court ruled that having a dog sniff and alert on a person is the same as a strip search. While our dogs can smell it on someone, and they might, I always used to joke Sparky would be like, "You."

Kathleen: And I could tell the schools, "Well, if you feel like checking some pockets, that might be a good kid to check." But that's up to the school. That's not up to me. So if there's a group of kids or it's a passing period, I just hang out and try to be visible. If there's a class out doing an activity in the hallway, I might just say hello, be visible, because again, that presence is meant to deter drugs, alcohol, and gunpowder in schools.

They see us, they hopefully think, "Oh, the dog was here. We should make good choices." That's what I always tell them: "Let's make better choices." And then I'll go to another part of the school that doesn't have anyone there, that's empty, and check lockers. I often have an administrator with me.

Navigating Legalities in Dog Handling Operations

Kathleen: So, if we do classrooms, the administrator will ask the students to leave the classroom and then we go in and check their belongings. Parking lots are always interesting because if a student parks on school grounds, that parking lot belongs to the school. So the Supreme Court has ruled that basically, you're renting that spot. If I have the right to come out and check vehicles, I might do random checks. For example, if someone says, 'We suspect a black truck,' okay, well, hopefully there's more than one black truck. If not, I'll just go check all the trucks in the parking lot.

There are a lot of different scenarios you get yourself into that you have to know the Fourth Amendment rights. And then those are great questions to ask if you're doing book research, because again, every agency is different. For instance, at the airport, if I had something on my person, those dogs probably are, I'm going to just assume, I don't know this 100 percent for certain, but I'm sure Homeland Security overrides any sort of, and, and we're willingly there.

Unlike kids that are mandated to go to school, that was part of the Supreme Court's decision with the searches and not allowing a dog to sniff a kid out of school is because they're legally forced to be there. At an airport, it's our choice to be there, right? We're going on vacation or we're flying to a writer's conference, wherever, and that was our choice.

We bought the ticket. We're in the security line. Those dogs, if you have something on your person, they're gonna alert on you. And then you're going to be taken away and searched. So there's a lot of different scenarios. And so I encourage writers out there to learn more about the Fourth Amendment cases that have gone to the Supreme Court concerning dogs, because there's actually been a few, especially for law enforcement.

And can you use a dog, like, could they just show up with a canine and check around my house if they thought I had a drug lab? The Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that. But it's a fascinating thing to read.

So it is important. That would be a great research question, depending again on what agency you're using, what you want to have happen. Is this a legal search? Is this an illegal search? And, you could certainly do an illegal one as a plot point to, you know, have the case thrown out or have a canine handler get fired or whatever you want to do with that.

Matty: Yeah, if all our books were about everybody following the letter of the law, they would be pretty boring books.

Kathleen: They would be, yeah. So it is kind of fun to play with that.

How to Get More Information for Writing About Working Dogs

Matty: So if someone is interested in researching this for their own book, are there any suggestions you have for how to go about this? Like, I always wanted to be the person that hid in the woods so that the dog could come look for me. I don't know if there's some qualification you need to be the person who goes and hides in the woods or gets buried under the snow or whatever.

Kathleen: Sure. What I would do is, first, figure out what agency you want, then go to their public information officer, assuming it's a law enforcement agency. If it's a private agency like ours, you can just reach out to me. I would go to the public information officer and say, "This is what I'm writing, is there a canine handler willing to talk to me?" Usually, canine handlers love talking about our dogs. We're so proud of our dogs and love telling stories. The only time I heard of a writer having any kind of a hard time finding a connection was TSA with the airports, and that probably just has to do with security. But when it comes to that, you could probably just get some basic dog information and use it if that's the agency you want to use in your book.

I'm also happy to help. On my website, KathleenDonnelly.com, people are welcome to reach out. I don't know everything about every type of working dog, but I could at least help someone get started. So if someone really was stuck, I would be happy to try to help them, but public information officers are great, and they can usually connect you with canine handlers, and it's a great way. In fact, I have a wonderful person I use for my books because my protagonist is a Forest Service law enforcement officer and canine handler, and it took me a while to find a real canine handler in a forest service, and it was through their public information office that I was able to connect with him.

Matty: So great. Well, Kathleen, thank you so much. I could talk about dogs for hours, but I appreciate the information you shared and please let everyone know where they can go to find out not only to contact you, to find out more about you and your books and everything you do online.

Kathleen: Thanks so much. The website is a great place to start. I also have a monthly newsletter and the signup is on the website. If you sign up, you get my free ebook called "Working Tales: The Stories Behind the Canines." I'm on social media, mostly Facebook and Instagram are great ways to connect. But otherwise, my newsletter and my website are fantastic.

Matty: Very good. Thank you so much.

Kathleen: Yeah, thank you!

Matty Dalrymple 4/30/24 Matty Dalrymple 4/30/24

Episode 236 - Creating Character Motivation: The Fallacy of Magical Knowing with Tiffany Yates Martin

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Tiffany Yates Martin discusses CREATING CHARACTER MOTIVATION: THE FALLACY OF MAGICAL KNOWING, including an explanation of what "magical knowing" is, what leads a writer to fall back on it, and the signs that you're relying on it; the importance of understanding the character's overarching goal and of laying in brushstrokes of both context and specifics; the challenge of finding balance; the power of dissecting your own story and the value of outside eyes; and the pitfalls of "magical ignorance."

Tiffany Yates Martin has spent nearly thirty years as an editor in the publishing industry, working with major publishers and New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today bestselling and award-winning authors as well as indie and newer writers. She is the founder of FoxPrint Editorial and author of INTUITIVE EDITING: A CREATIVE AND PRACTICAL GUIDE TO REVISING YOUR WRITING. She is a regular contributor to Writer’s Digest, Jane Friedman, and Writer Unboxed, and a frequent presenter and keynote speaker for writers’ organizations around the country. Under her pen name, Phoebe Fox, she is the author of six novels.

Episode Links

Tiffany's Links
https://foxprinteditorial.com/
https://www.facebook.com/tiffanynyates/
https://www.instagram.com/tiffanyyatesmartin/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-TMebXV5sg8-fQkVeg_0w

Past Podcast Appearances:Episode 152 - The Three Stages of Story with Tiffany Yates Martin
Episode 112 - Being the Captain of Your Author Voyage with Tiffany Yates Martin
Episode 088 - How to Receive and Give Critique with Tiffany Yates Martin
Episode 065 - X-raying Your Plot with Tiffany Yates Martin
Episode 053 - What Authors can Learn from TV and Movies with Tiffany Yates Martin

Summary

In The Indy Author Podcast hosted by Matty Dalrymple, guest Tiffany Yates Martin, an experienced editor and author, discusses the concept of "magical knowing" in writing and its implications for character development. Tiffany explains that magical knowing is a narrative shortcut where characters suddenly understand or realize something without the narrative groundwork that logically leads to that knowledge. This can occur in any genre, from detective stories to romances, and often stems from an author’s desire not to over-explain or from their intimate knowledge of the story, which may not fully translate to the reader.

Tiffany emphasizes the importance of showing how characters come to their thoughts, feelings, or realizations, likening it to showing one's work in a math problem. She suggests that authors should avoid leaps in logic and instead provide specific, detailed groundwork that allows the reader to understand and believe in the character's journey. This includes exploring the character's motivations, desires, and the personal stakes involved in their actions and decisions.

The discussion moves into the necessity of external and internal motivations for characters, highlighting the need for clear, believable reasons behind their actions. For example, in a detective story, rather than having the detective simply "know" who the culprit is, the narrative should provide tangible clues and reasoning that lead to this conclusion.

Matty discusses her experiences and challenges with magical knowing in her own writing, exploring how she has worked to identify and rectify it in her manuscripts. Tiffany highlights the role of external feedback, such as beta readers, critique partners, and editors, in identifying areas where the narrative may rely too heavily on magical knowing.

Additionally, the conversation covers the concept of "magical ignorance," where characters are inexplicably unaware of something obvious to the reader. Tiffany advises that authors should carefully lay out the reasons why a character may have certain blind spots or misunderstandings, thereby preventing the narrative from appearing contrived or forced.

Towards the end of the discussion, Tiffany and Matty delve into the editing and revision process, where much of the work on addressing magical knowing takes place. They discuss the importance of questioning every aspect of the character's journey to ensure logical consistency and emotional authenticity.

Tiffany also touches on the difficulty of letting go of beloved story elements that don't serve the narrative's coherence or believability, stressing the value of being open to change and reevaluation during the editing process.

The conversation concludes with Tiffany highlighting resources available for writers seeking to improve their craft and avoid pitfalls like magical knowing, pointing to her work and online platforms as valuable tools for authors.

Overall, the discussion emphasizes the critical importance of well-grounded character motivations and development in creating compelling, believable narratives. Authors are encouraged to meticulously examine their characters' motivations and actions to ensure they are convincingly portrayed and logically consistent throughout the story.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello, and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Tiffany Yates Martin. Hey, Tiffany, how are you doing?

[00:00:06] Tiffany: Hi Matty. Good, how are you?

[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you. To give our listeners and viewers a little background on you, Tiffany Yates Martin has spent nearly 30 years as an editor in the publishing industry, working with major publishers and "New York Times," "Washington Post," "Wall Street Journal," and "USA Today" bestselling, and award-winning authors, as well as indie and newer writers. She's the founder of Fox Print Editorial and the author of "Intuitive Editing: A Creative and Practical Guide to Revising Your Writing." She's a contributor to "Writer's Digest," "Jane Friedman," and "Writer Unboxed," and a frequent presenter and keynote speaker for writers' organizations around the country. Under her pen name, Phoebe Fox, she's the author of six novels.

And she's been my guest a ton of times on the podcast, so I'm going to include links to all of those in the show notes. Every time Tiffany does one of those presentations or writes one of those articles or sends me a blog post, I always think that would be a great topic for a podcast interview. But one came across my PC that I was just so intrigued with that I invited Tiffany back to talk about it, and it is "Creating Character Motivation: The Fallacy of Magical Knowing." And I thought a good way to start this out would be to ask you, Tiffany, to explain what you mean by magical knowing.

What is “magical knowing”?

[00:01:13] Tiffany: First, thanks for that great introduction, and I was hoping you were going to mention that I'm what, a five-timer now?

[00:01:19] Matty: You are a five-timer. I don't think that even includes the contributions you made to my "Perspectives On" episode.

[00:01:26] Tiffany: Oh, those were fun. Yeah, I want my "Saturday Night Live" five-timer jacket.

[00:01:30] Matty: Yay. You, Dale Roberts, and Michael Aran are vying for the jacket at the moment.

...

[00:01:40] Matty: What is "magical knowing"?

[00:01:42] Tiffany: I see it in manuscripts, not a lot, but it's an author shortcut where rather than showing on the page why a character thinks something, feels something, reacts in a certain way, or has a realization, they just know. Something tells her she could trust him, or suddenly she realized she'd loved him all along. It usually looks something like that, where it's an unsupported shift in the character that we haven't seen on the page.

[00:02:21] Matty: I think that the way I see this a lot is in detective or sleuth stories, mysteries, where there's the "she just knew that he was the one."

[00:02:30] Tiffany: Yeah, you see it a lot in romances. I see it in every genre, honestly, and it's twofold. I think it comes from not wanting to spoon-feed readers, which is a great instinct, and we can talk a little bit more about how to balance that. It also comes from the author knowing so much about their own story that they're filling a lot of it in their head.

[00:02:51] Tiffany: It's hard to know what's coming across on the page to readers and what you think is coming across because you know it. We often assume an objective value to something, like, "oh, she was so afraid of losing her job," or "if she didn't address this issue, she was worried they were facing divorce." That, by itself, doesn't impact us unless you lay the groundwork and dig a little deeper so that we understand why this job is important and why it would be bad to lose it, beyond the general dislike of job loss. There's got to be something deeper and more specific. And that's actually the key to addressing magical knowing in general: remove the leaps and generalizations and get really specific and granular.

Tiffany: It's like when you take a math test in school and they tell you, "Yes, you got the right answer, but you didn't show your work." You have to show your work. We need to understand how the character gets to where you're telling us they've gotten, or it feels like an authorial device.

[00:04:04] Matty: It's probably very obvious if someone looks in their manuscript and sees phrases like "she just had a feeling" or "I just knew he was the one." That's pretty obvious. But in the spirit of identifying if this is going on, are there any subtle clues that a writer can look for in their own work that indicate they're falling back on magical knowing?

[00:04:28] Tiffany: It's hard to see it in your own work, as it's difficult to see many things in our work, because we're filling in the blanks since we know the story so well. You need to be a bit forensic and deliberate about it. Having outside eyes, whether it's a beta reader, critique partners, an editor, or a book coach, can provide objective feedback. But you can also dissect the story yourself, which is something I advise in my editing work with authors. Ask yourself questions and dig deeper to see if you can identify not just overarching instances of magical knowing but also individual ones.

For example, do we understand what drives your character? Why does losing a job or a marriage matter to them? Have you conveyed that on the page? Write down what your character wants and what drives them. Then ask yourself, how would a reader know this? Pinpoint where you've shown this on the page. Another piece of advice is to dig deeper than you might initially. For instance, if your character is an architect who dreams of building eco-conscious buildings to make a name for herself, explore what makes this dream unique and important to her.

Tiffany: We often assume we understand the goals and motivations of our characters, but there's a deeper level, which I refer to as what's driving them, underpinning their motivations. We need to understand both their external and internal goals. It's essential to explore why specific outcomes matter to them personally. It's not enough to state that a character in a given field wants to achieve greatness or become a trailblazer. We must delve into the personal reasons driving these aspirations.

What personal experiences or insecurities are influencing their ambitions? For instance, does a female character feel the need to prove herself due to societal pressures or past discouragement? Identifying the character's deep-seated longing or lack is crucial in understanding what they desperately seek and why. This longing or lack is the void they are trying to fill.

When reviewing your story, it's beneficial to conduct a separate editing pass focusing solely on these aspects. This involves a granular and forensic analysis of each line and scene, assessing how well it conveys the character's desires, motivations, and the logical progression of their realizations.

Characters, like people, are shaped by their experiences and relationships. These factors subtly guide their actions, even if they're not consciously aware of them. By laying the groundwork and hinting at these underlying influences, you allow readers to infer the reasons behind the characters' actions, thus avoiding the pitfall of having them act in seemingly unmotivated or undeveloped ways.

[00:09:27] Matty: Many things you mentioned made me realize that I had been considering magical knowing more in the context of external knowledge, such as in mysteries and thrillers, where the character just knows who the culprit is. However, there's also an internal aspect, more prevalent in genres like romance, where the knowing pertains to self-awareness. To counteract this, I annotate my manuscript with notes on what the characters know, think, and feel at various points, helping to justify their actions, such as why someone would risk entering a dangerous situation.

I may not put it explicitly on the page. I may, but I might not. At least I know that, and I'm checking myself against it. The same could be true of these inwardly directed motivations, like her reacting more extremely to this person in this situation because it reminds her of a previous relationship. Maybe that doesn’t come out until later, but are there differences in how a writer should approach the management of magical knowing if it's more internally versus externally focused?

[00:10:53] Tiffany: Maybe you point your attentions in different places. I said there was the blanket element of it, which is more what I was just describing, which you're calling internal. That's motivating the entire character arc. Then there are those specific moments. What you were talking about with analyzing every scene and articulating those things, that sort of hits on something I call the want, the action, and the shift for every scene.

What is the character's overarching goal?

[00:11:22] Tiffany: This is laying the groundwork. I want to talk about the more granular ones that you're calling external. But in every single scene, your character has what I call an uber goal, their overarching goal, the main thing they're trying to achieve in the story, whatever you've decided that is, and their main motivation for that.

But in every scene, there's also a more immediate goal, related to that ultimate goal, something they're trying to achieve in order to ultimately attain that distant goal, the overarching one. So in every scene, can you identify what that is? What is the thing in this scene that they need to do, get, accomplish, find out?

In order to get one step closer to that final destination, what action in the scene do they take to do that, and how does the success or failure of that action affect them and cause a shift in them that either pushes them farther along the path toward that goal or derails them from it and forces them to renegotiate their strategy, find their motivation to go after it again, or send them into a tailspin from which they have to recover?

And if you can do that for every scene, you are paving bigger picture stepping stones, but also at the scene level. You and I talked earlier about what I call the "but therefore" that I stole from the "South Park" creators, and you called it, I think, the "because because" or "because and then."

[00:12:55] Matty: Yeah, you have to be able to say the character does this because of something, not despite something.

[00:13:02] Tiffany: It could be "despite," actually, but the way the "South Park" guys talk about it, they say every single scene should be connected with the words "but" or "therefore," meaning every scene is an obstacle to what came before. "She was going down the road to get to the market but a bus ran her over." Or, "therefore."

It's causal. "She was going down the street to get to the market and therefore she was standing there when the killer drove by, and she was able to identify the license plate." These are terrible examples, but if you can do that, your scene has the logic, causality, momentum, and forward push that we're looking for.

We see the groundwork laid for why things are happening, how they're happening, and what's making the character see it. But the more granular moments you're talking about have a lot to do with character in our life, I think, and showing, letting readers be privy to what's going on inside them. So when I say inner life, I don’t mean large swaths of internal monologue, which can bog your story down and get very navel-gazing.

I mean letting readers understand, in whatever way works for your style and your story, what's going on inside the character. Because without that, we are always kept at a distance from the story, and that’s one of the main causes of magical knowing. In the interest of not spoon-feeding all of that to the reader, authors just tend to skip over it.

And then you get the "he just knew," or we just see them acting as if they have come to some realization or shift, but we were not made privy to it.

The pitfalls of "magical ignorance"

[00:14:50] Matty: In terms of the internal things, there's almost another flavor of magical knowing, which is "magical ignorance," where the character should know something, like internally, fact-based things, but they don’t recognize something about themselves that’s apparent to the reader. Sometimes I read those and think there must be something else going on here that the character doesn’t recognize. They're having this magical ignorance that they’re not recognizing something that’s apparent to everybody else. Sometimes it plays out in a very satisfying way, where it becomes clear that what you thought was the obvious thing is not the obvious thing, or the reason the person isn't recognizing it is explained later on. But then sometimes you just get to the end and think, no, that person should have known that all along.

[00:15:36] Tiffany: It feels device-y and like incomplete character development, and we sort of see the author's hand, because you're forcing your character not to see something that the reader is questioning why they wouldn’t see. But the solution is the same. You have to lay the groundwork, so if your character is not seeing something obvious, if they have a blind spot, you just have to pave in why.

Maybe they always see the best in everyone, and so they can't see the bad intentions in their best friend that we are clearly seeing through their actions. Maybe they are socially naive because they were raised in a commune without any social engagement. I’m coming up with very strange examples today.

But if you establish it as the reality of the story, the reality of the characters, and develop both deeply and specifically enough, you don’t have to spoon-feed us. We are putting these puzzle pieces together as readers, ourselves, and you’re engaging us directly in the story that way, by giving us the puzzle pieces. We're here fitting them together, so your character doesn’t have to see it, and you don’t have to spell it out, but you have dropped those breadcrumbs that we have been faithfully gathering.

[00:16:51] Tiffany: So now we're starting, and I'm mixing metaphors here horribly, but now we're starting to see the full picture. I often refer to this as laying in brush strokes of context. It doesn't have to be big swaths of info dump. If you just, little by little, stroke in shading here and there throughout the story as you develop the character and move the story forward, we will infer these things for ourselves. That's what draws us so deeply into a story and makes readers feel hooked. We're not just passive recipients of the story; we're not just watching these characters on a screen in front of us. That's what makes us start to feel as if we are them. We're in it.

[00:17:35] Matty: And when you're judging whether you're spoon-feeding too much or you need more of that, like, I know my pitfall, according to my editor, is that I assume the reader is more in sync with my understanding of what the character is doing than I should. So after his pass, I normally have to go in and be more explicit about things that I erroneously thought were sufficiently clear, but do you have guidance about that? What is too much and what is not enough?

[00:18:03] Tiffany: Oh, that's a really good question.

[00:18:05] Matty: I know that's a really long question. We could do a whole other podcast episode on that.

The challenge of finding balance

[00:18:09] Tiffany: Yeah, and it's funny, I always joke that the answer I give most frequently to questions about craft is also the world's most frustrating answer, which is, it just depends. Finding the balance in story, in general, between too much and not enough in almost every story element is one of the biggest challenges of storytelling and mastering craft. It can vary depending on your genre, your reader, the story, the author. In that regard, sometimes the only real way to find it is through outside eyes, because you're not necessarily the best judge of that. Like you said with your editor, you are doing what you think is the best, most effective way to lay the groundwork we're talking about, to brushstroke in the context.

But whether or not it comes across that way to the reader is not always something you can see until you get editorial objectivity on your own work. You can do that to a degree, but it's almost impossible to have it 100 percent on your own work unless you literally step away from it for like six months and then go back to it with really fresh eyes. A lot will become apparent to you. One of the main jobs, I say this all the time, of an editor, or anyone who's giving you feedback, is to hold up the mirror and to let you see more clearly what you have on the page because it's so hard to assess it yourself when you're in the middle of it.

[00:19:37] Matty: So, I always suggest that authors go about doing their own editing and revising that way too. Go through and just ask yourself: Why? Why does your character want what they want? First of all, can you articulate that? Why do they want that or think they want that thing?

[00:19:55] Tiffany: Where does that come from? What deeper desire or drive lies beneath that vague or glib answer you might initially give or generalized answer? What are the specifics behind it? What is this situation hitting on deep in your character that they may not even be consciously aware of? That they may be picking up in other characters and drawing conclusions from.

Just go through and, I mean, I literally do that line by line when I'm editing. Do I see that? Do I have questions in my mind as a reader? Like I said, it can be a bit harder to do, but if you know your intention in a scene, you can address these concerns. Often authors will tell me, after I ask those questions, "Well, I explain her motivation four lines down." I'll go four lines down and see why that feels sufficient to them because they know her full story. But for readers, you're still just vaguely hinting at something that we don't have enough context on yet to fully understand.

The importance of specifics

[00:20:58] Matty: I found that when I've gone back to my manuscripts to address the critique from the editor about it not being clear why the characters are doing this, it's less about stating "he did this because he was very angry with his roommate," and more about adding actions, like in long passages of dialogue, and going back to add some physicality to it. This sheds more light beyond just the words onto maybe what he's thinking or how he's feeling.

[00:21:20] Tiffany: Exactly, adding physicality that reveals more than just the words is helpful.

[00:21:28] Matty: Sometimes adding adverbs, as appropriate, helps too. I'm proof-listening to the audiobook of my fifth Lizzy Ballard novel, and every once in a while, the narrator interprets it in a way I didn't anticipate. Looking at the words on the page, I can see why she thought that, but if I had included something like "he closed his fist over the lapel of his jacket before he spoke," it would seed a little more hint that this person is really supposed to be more angry than irritated in this scene, or more contemplative than passive for whatever it might be.

[00:22:13] Tiffany: What you're describing is using show to indicate, giving clues that let us draw the conclusion. So, one way to avoid spoon-feeding is to show rather than spell it out. If we're seeing the behavior, we start to put the pieces together, like "Oh, they're uncomfortable. That must hit on what we found out three chapters ago about how their father used to belittle them as a child every time they tried to reach for something outside of their comfort zone," or whatever it is. We make those connections based on what you are showing us.

But sometimes it can also be tell, just not in the spoon-feeding way like "she was angry because." If you tell us a little bit, it’s like glancing off the thing instead of putting your finger right on it. Think about times when you, okay, let's use a specific example from the blog post you wanted to talk about. When people ask me why I moved to Austin 17 years ago from Florida, they often ask why. I give them my standard anecdotal answer, which is I visited Austin and just had a vibe about it.

I felt like it was a great place to be. And that is true to a point, but it's the magical knowing. In the blog post, I talk about several things. First of all, what led me to even start looking for someplace else. Many people get a bit carried away. I don't know why. But I really think that if you are going to be a parent, you should consider all aspects. I became interested in the foster to adopt program and started thinking about Austin.

Why though? Because what I really was looking for in the foster to adopt program was having a family. I was single. I wanted to have a sense of love, belonging, and security and not be on my own anymore. So that was the way I thought I had to do it because I was living in this retirement town where dating was practically a dead zone.

[00:24:41] Tiffany: But again, so now we have a little more clarity of motivation. I didn't just go, "Oh, that looks like a great place. I just know it. I feel it." I did a lot of research. I came to the town and spent some time, like a week and a half, maybe total in two different visits. I researched the demographics, the educational level, the political slant, the population, the cost of living, and what parts of town I would like. I got really granular with it. I looked at census data, the ratio of men to women, and the age distribution. This was the farthest thing from just knowing, but just knowing makes a fun anecdote.

To a degree, it did feel like that. Like, I got here and there was a day where I just thought, "This feels right." But it felt right for all those reasons that I may not have been articulating at the time to myself or anyone else, but that was what was going into that magical moment of just knowing. If I were a character, you would lay that groundwork so that even if the character isn't putting those pieces together, the reader can.

I can imagine a story where a character decides to move from Florida to Austin just because they have a vibe. They're looking for something and they don't know what. We need more than that.

[00:26:06] Matty: Yeah, and they may subconsciously have all that going on, but they themselves are magically ignorant of what's driving them. It could be the focus of the story to delve into why they made this decision and what it is about their past that affects it. That could be very entertainingly and gradually revealed to the reader, where the author understands more about what their character is doing than the character does.

[00:26:31] Tiffany: That is the basis of a lot of stories, especially in genres like women's fiction. A common trope is a character leaving home, forging ahead on the hero's journey, or coming back to wherever. "Back" may mean actually returning home or going somewhere new. They're fleeing something they're trying to get away from, or they're going towards something they want, or both. And again, they may not fully know what that is. As you said, the story may be about uncovering that, but the reader needs to see some clues. You can't ask us to take on faith that they just want to start over and this is a place where they think they'll find a better life because those are vague terms. We don't know what they mean, so we have nothing to hook into, nothing to root for them to achieve. We need the specifics.

[00:27:31] Matty: Yeah, I realized that, shifting gears a bit toward more of the external, the externally focused magical knowing is, I think, more driven by plot issues than character motivation issues. Because what I imagine is, falling back on the mystery novel or the police procedural, for example, "he just knew that this person was the bad guy." I've got to believe it's in part because you need to get the sleuth to pursue a person and you don't know how. It's going to be just as frustrating to a mystery or police procedural reader to read that and not know why; it was because he secretly knew about his gambling problem or he noticed, in a Sherlock Holmes way, that his boots were dirtier than they should be if he was really an accountant.

We do get vibes from people, right? That's real, but it's not just like, "Ooh, I'm getting a vibe." The animalistic part of us is picking up on cues, and that's what you have to show on the page. What are they seeing from that character? Where's that vibe coming from? Is it shifty eyes?

[00:28:45] Tiffany: Or, like you said, the clue on the boot? Is it drumming their fingers on the table? I'm using a bunch of cliches here, but you see where I'm going with this: give readers the clues, show us what the character is seeing through their eyes, and we will understand where that magical vibe, in air quotes, is coming from, because you've shown it to us.

What you're describing is lazy writing, right? It's lazy, frustrated writing. Nothing against any author who does that; we've all done it. It's like, "Just trust me, she knows." Because we get to a point where we've backed ourselves into a corner and we need to push the story forward.

And we don't always know how that happens. It’s great that you brought that up because those are great clues to look at where you have either shortcutted to something like that or felt that frustration and go, "Okay, let's dig a little deeper. Let's do the hard work where it feels like I'm at a dead end, I can't get through, and just keep at it until I break through." Because somewhere in there, if you dig deep enough in the character, in the plot, in the physical clues, whatever it is you've left out, it’s there if you just mine down to it.

[00:30:05] Matty: Well, I mentioned earlier about a conversation I had with Mary Carroll Moore about using "because." We had been talking about "the character does this because," and I applied that to the book I'm working on. I found myself in a situation where I needed to get a character from where they were to Baltimore for later plot purposes, and I didn't really have a good "because" yet. I started running through, just as the character would, what are all their options at this point?

They could go to Baltimore, or they could hunker down where they are, or they could hit the road without any particular destination in mind. And I realized there was a perfectly legitimate reason for them to pick the Baltimore option among all the others. Once I reassured myself of that, then I could go ahead with them going to Baltimore and seed in the appropriate things that make that, among all the list of things they could do, the one they pick.

But I think that moment where you say, "Wait, why are they doing that?" doesn't necessarily mean you're at the end of the road. It just means you need to understand better yourself so that you can set it up appropriately for the reader.

[00:31:14] Tiffany: One way to make this less daunting is to remember, as you just said, this is often something you see in editing and revision. It's not necessarily while you're writing. If you just need to get the draft done and you need her in Baltimore, just say he goes on vacation in Baltimore. That's fine. Put it in there for now. Then later, you can go back and do the digging. But if you stop while you're drafting, you might lose your momentum. So don't worry about it at that stage. Leave the magical knowing in. But then, as I do in my job as an editor, go in and start poking your own holes.

When you find one, that's when you hunker down and dig a bit deeper and try to avoid those coincidences, which is another manifestation of magical knowing. For example, the very person she's been trying to avoid walks into the coffee shop where she is, and 20 pages later, the exact clue she's looking for is found in a coin she found in her pocket with the right date on it, given by the barista at the coffee shop. If you string enough of those together, it starts to feel contrived and we see the author's hand. Just dig deeper and find more plausible ways of laying that groundwork. Put the brush strokes in and don't worry so much during the drafting period.

If you need to shortcut during the drafting period to reach the end, do it. Then you've got something to work with. The fun part for me is the excavation of editing, revising, and deepening, making the story exactly what you wanted it to be in the first place.

[00:32:54] Matty: I've found that framing out the story works well because I had a great scene in mind where one of the protagonist's allies goes into the home of the bad guy to get a piece of evidence to send to the police. I worked hard to make that make sense, but I finally had to admit there was no reason it would work. He would have to go into the bad guy's house. That was a cute idea, but I just had to let it go.

[00:33:24] Tiffany: I love that you did that because it's really hard to let go of something, especially when you're trying to push the story in a certain direction and it's just not going to go there unless you force it. That's a tough thing to let go of, especially for plotters. You've got your outline, which makes sense and works, but sometimes the story develops differently. It doesn’t come out on the page the way you thought it would in the outline stage, and you have to be willing to redirect if necessary.

[00:33:57] Matty: Yeah, or in this case, I could have completely overhauled the story to make it make sense for him to go into the house, but that's like 80 percent of the work for 20 percent of the payoff, just to have this one scene that I thought would be kind of fun.

Plus, I'll just use it as a giveaway for my email newsletter subscribers.

[00:34:16] Tiffany: I love that you said that too. It's really hard to let go of a darling, and I always advise having a discard file where you keep all that stuff because it can be many things. It can be harvest material for something in the future or a book in the series, but it can also be bonus material for your fans, a magnet for new newsletter subscribers, or a fun thing to talk about in an interview, like the deleted scene in movies.

[00:34:46] Matty: There was a story, which would be way better if I could remember the details, but I was at a Thriller Writers Conference some years ago. One of the speakers, who had written a World War II historical espionage novel, told a fascinating story about some research he had done. He discovered a fascinating fact, and although his publisher pushed back, he felt strongly about it. Eventually, he realized the publisher was right and now uses it in speeches like this, which I thought was very cute.

[00:35:23] Tiffany: It's hard because there is, especially with darlings, a knee-jerk desire to defend them and explain why they're necessary. I often work with publishers doing three passes for every manuscript. My rule is we'll push about something we feel strongly about, me and the in-house editors, a couple of times, and then on the third time, if the author really insists, we go hands off. But we push hard before we get to that point because there's a lot of resistance to letting go. As a writer myself, my first reaction to feedback is to explain why it's wrong.

[00:36:08] Tiffany: If you let it sit and percolate, think about it, and try to mess with it and fix it, eventually, I think we learn to trust those objective outside eyes giving us feedback. The stronger you react to something, the more likely it's hitting on a darling. Feedback that doesn’t hit something personal doesn’t elicit such a strong response in an author, so that’s actually a good way to pinpoint something that maybe needs a second look, even though you love it.

[00:36:48] Matty: A good example of that is in one of the Ann Kinnear books set on Mount Desert Island. It seemed really coincidental that these two people, otherwise with no apparent connections, knew each other through more casual interactions. I thought, "It’s not that big an island, and the community is small," so it made sense to me that these people would have met. I didn't change the fact that they already knew each other when they encountered each other, but I seeded it with more examples of setting up why it actually makes total sense that these two people are aware of each other and have interacted in some way.

[00:37:34] Tiffany: Exactly what you said is how you fix it. You don’t ignore coincidences because they happen in life. It would be ridiculous to pretend they don’t in a story, but it helps if you give us a reason to believe it's plausible. Seeding it in, like a line here and there, makes it believable.

[00:37:56] Matty: Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:57] Tiffany: It’s not major surgery most of the time; just go in and drop the breadcrumbs where you need them.

[00:38:02] Matty: Yeah, I didn’t do it overtly, but I seeded in that one character was a consultant and he charged a lot for his consultations, so he was known to the upper crust of the community because they were the ones hiring him for his services. They would have mentioned him to their friends and so on.

[00:38:23] Tiffany: And your readers remember that. We are constantly gathering the threads of the world, the story, and the characters, weaving and braiding them together to make sense of it. That's the beauty of written stories as opposed to other mediums, which I also love. But in reading, you are not just a passive observer as often is the case with movies and television. The reader is doing a lot of the connection work.

We're constantly trying to put the puzzle together. Research shows that the same areas of your brain that light up when you are actively doing these things also light up when you are reading about these things. This draws you in more deeply than more visual media. That's the power an author has. Give us a reason to make those connections, provide most of the puzzle pieces, and withhold a few if you want to create a reveal. We still need enough to orient us, ground us, and make us care.

[00:39:49] Matty: Well, Tiffany, I think you've just identified the next topic for our podcast conversations, if I can lure you back. I just had "REVEAL" written in big letters on my notes.

[00:39:57] Tiffany: Always.

[00:40:05] Matty: Thank you for coming back, and please let everyone know where they can find out more about you and everything you do online.

[00:40:10] Tiffany: You can find me at foxprinteditorial.com, which is probably the best clearinghouse for everything. I am on Instagram and Facebook under Tiffany Yates Martin. I also have a weekly blog with craft tips, business tips for making a career as a writer, and a ton of resources for authors, many of them free. One thing that might be relevant to this conversation is a beta reader questionnaire that can help get actionable feedback.

Thank you, too. I always have the best time talking to you. I lose track of time and feel like we could do this all day long. Thanks for having me on. It’s always a pleasure, and I love the service you're doing for authors.

Matty Dalrymple 4/23/24 Matty Dalrymple 4/23/24

Episode 235 - The Source Code of Storytelling with Rob Hart

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Rob Hart discusses THE SOURCE CODE OF STORYTELLING, including the importance of making your readers laugh; getting rid of the rituals; doing a backwards editing pass; posing the villain as the hero of their own story; not counting out the Riders of Rohan; and writing an outline and throwing it out.

Rob Hart is the author of THE PARADOX HOTEL and THE WAREHOUSE. He also wrote the Ash McKenna crime series, the short story collection TAKE-OUT, the novella SCOTT FREE with James Patterson, and the comic book BLOOD OATH with Alex Segura. His next books, coming in 2024, are ASSASSINS ANONYMOUS, and DARK SPACE, the latter of which is co-written with Alex Segura.

Episode Links

www.robwhart.com
https://www.instagram.com/robwhart1/
https://www.facebook.com/robwhart1

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Rob Hart covers various aspects of storytelling and writing techniques. Rob emphasizes the importance of humor in writing, even in serious stories, to create intimacy with characters and make dramatic moments land more impactfully. He discusses the utility of humor as a tool for building trust with the reader and making characters more relatable. Rob also touches on the need to avoid strict writing rituals to adapt to life's unpredictability, suggesting that flexibility in the writing process is crucial.

Rob advocates for editing novels backward to infuse fresh energy into endings and ensure they are as polished as the beginnings. He highlights the significance of villains being the protagonists of their own stories, arguing that depth, drive, and ambition make for compelling antagonists. Rob also mentions the power of the "come-from-behind save" in storytelling, which emphasizes community and support among characters.

Furthermore, Rob suggests writing outlines then discarding them to ensure only the most impactful elements remain in the narrative. This process helps in streamlining the story and avoiding unnecessary details. Lastly, Rob shares personal anecdotes and examples from popular culture to illustrate his points, providing a comprehensive overview of his approach to storytelling and writing.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indie Author Podcast. Today my guest is Rob Hart. Hey Rob, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] Rob: Hey, thanks so much for having me.

[00:00:07] Matty: I am happy to have you here.

Meet Rob Hart

[00:00:09] Matty: To give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, Rob Hart is the author of "The Paradox Hotel" and "The Warehouse." He also wrote the Ash McKenna Crime Series, the short story collection "Take Out," the novella "Scott Free" with James Patterson, and the comic book "Blood Oath" with Alex Segura.

His next books, which are coming out in 2024, are "Assassin's Anonymous" and "Dark Space," the latter of which is also co-written with Alex Segura.

The source code of storytelling

[00:00:33] Matty: And the topic of our conversation today is going to be the source code of storytelling. And this came from a wonderful presentation that Rob gave at the 2023 Writer's Digest conference that I attended. And I wrote down lots and lots of points he had made. And then when I got in touch with Rob, I said, "Rob, can you pick six of these points that you would like to talk about with my podcast listeners?" And he graciously did that. And so I'm just going to throw them out for the conversation and see where the conversation takes us.

Make your reader laugh

[00:00:59] Matty: So the first topic that I wanted to hit was "Make your reader laugh." Why should we make our reader laugh?

[00:01:07] Rob: I think that's so important to be able to inject humor into your work, even if you're writing something really serious. You don't have to take what you're writing and make it into a comedy, but the thing is when we can laugh with characters, we like them more.

This is something that I did with "Assassins Anonymous," which is coming out in June, and it's about the world's best hitman, who's like a John Wick-type character who gets into a support program for killers because he doesn't want to kill anyone anymore. And one of the earliest decisions I made with him was that I had to make him funny.

I had to make him really funny and really charming because he's going to do things later in the book that, if you don't love him, I'm going to lose you as a reader. So there needs to be that sort of intimacy and closeness to the character. And I think in a general sense, when an author or director can make us laugh along with the characters, it opens us up a little bit more and once we're a little bit more open and a little bit more vulnerable, that's when the really dramatic moments can hit, and they land like body blows.

And I think the master of this is James Gunn, the director who did the "Guardians of the Galaxy" movies, which are really goofy, silly, ridiculous, over-the-top movies, until you get to the end, until you get to those really resonant, emotional moments, and they just land so, so hard. Because we've spent all this time just falling in love with these characters because of how goofy and ridiculous they are.

[00:02:37] Matty: The example that often strikes me when I think about making people laugh where you wouldn't expect it is in "Pulp Fiction," when they shoot the guy in the back seat. It's been a long time since I've watched "Pulp Fiction," but "Pulp Fiction" is not the normal kind of movie I watch, and I had put it off for a long time because I figured it was probably not for me, but I got really engrossed in the movie and that moment came just like when I needed a break.

[00:03:15] Rob: Yeah, and that's the thing—it also works as a pressure release valve. Sometimes you need that. When things are really dark for a long time, you have to give your audience a break. You have to let them laugh and decompress a little. Because if you're hitting them with the same tone over and over again, it becomes too much.

[00:03:33] Matty: Yeah, I like the idea of making the reader laugh because it helps them trust you. That's a different perspective than I'm used to hearing. Can you talk a bit about how humor can build trust with your reader?

[00:03:45] Rob: Yeah, so this is something I go back to a lot. Chuck Palahniuk, the author of "Fight Club," talks about establishing authority. There are two ways to establish authority: the head method and the heart method. The head method is demonstrating knowledge and technical proficiency. For example, when writing an assassin character, showing him being good at his job or how brilliant he can be in a stressful situation—that's the head method. The heart method is about being vulnerable and honest with your reader. I think a lot of humor comes from honesty and vulnerability. When we lean into that heart method, it's another access point to remind us that our characters are just like us—they are regular people. That's what we aim to write. And once we establish that trust, you can really take the reader anywhere.

[00:04:39] Matty: I find it interesting, I'm trying to decide if this is the same example or the opposite, that when you have a cast of characters, and one is kind of goofy and explicitly there to make the reader laugh, and then you show something different than the humorous side, like a deeper or seemingly contradictory side, it builds trust because the reader sees that you're not using stereotypes or caricatures and are willing to explore the depths of your characters beyond their ostensible function.

[00:05:22] Rob: That's 100 percent true. That's authority from an unexpected source, which I really love, and I think it can be used incredibly well. One of my favorite jokes of all time on "The Simpsons" is when the family is going to Japan and Homer is upset. Marge says, "You should be happy about going to Japan; you liked 'Rashomon,'" and Homer responds, "That's not how I remember it."

If you've seen "Rashomon," it's about perspective and memory, so it's a very clever joke. But it's also Homer Simpson, the world's most famous idiot, making a fairly clever reference to a Kurosawa movie, which is unexpected from his character. And that's why that joke lands so hard for me—because it's a dumb character referring to one of the greatest movies ever made in a way you wouldn't expect him to understand.

[00:06:48] Matty: Yeah, those are my favorite characters—when they're going along and you have expectations of them, then they do something unexpected. It's the kind of surprising yet inevitable twist. You can't just drop them into suddenly becoming a movie critic, but I like your example as well.

Get rid of the rituals

[00:07:07] Matty: Moving on to the second of the great points you made in your presentation, another point is to get rid of the rituals. This is kind of surprising because I think a lot of people talk about how they always have to have their cup of coffee and always have to be sitting at this desk. Why do you recommend against rituals?

[00:07:23] Rob: I think rituals can be really self-limiting in the sense that life doesn't always allow for ritual. I had this idea in my head, you know, back when I was a little baby writer, that I needed to only write at night, and only if I had a glass of wine, and only if there was a certain type of music playing. Sometimes it was like getting all those things to line up was really difficult.

And the thing that I learned from being a parent was that you write when you can. Because your schedule is not your own anymore, your time is not your own anymore. There was a period when my daughter was in her first year. I would know that when she went down for her afternoon nap, I had an hour and a half.

And I've got it now, and I've got to use it. Or even now, on days when she's with me and I don't want to write, I just want to hang out with her and do dumb stuff. And then on the days that she's not with me, I need to really knuckle down and focus on what I'm doing.

So, you know, rules and rituals scare me because if you're not adhering to those rules and rituals, it's easy to feel like, "Oh, this isn't going to work." I've always thought it's better to just say the work gets done or it doesn't, and that's really the only thing you need to focus on.

[00:08:35] Matty: Of all the authors I've spoken with, I think having a child is the best example of the benefit of not being tied to rituals, and their duration of allocated writing time suspiciously matches up with their child's nap duration at that moment.

Nothing has to be done a certain way

[00:08:51] Rob: Yeah, and I think it's important to just get this idea out of your head that everything has to be done a certain way. Everyone's process is going to be uniquely their own. And that's really what you spend a lot of time on, even like the first couple of years of me trying to learn how to do this was me trying to figure out the way that I need to do this, you know, and it's going to look different for everyone else.

[00:09:04] Matty: And I think we all, you know, start off from a place of copying. We want to know what everyone's rituals are because we're looking for what works. The thing that worries me is when people take everything as a rule. It's like, "Oh, you write like this, so I have to write like this."

And it's not like that. You have to write the way you write. You don't have to write like I write because the way I write might be weird. You know, I have a buddy, Jordan, who pound for pound is, I think, one of the best novelists working today. Jordan Harper, his last book was called "Everybody Knows." His book "She Rides Shotgun" is going to be a movie soon.

He's unbelievable. He writes his book, writes all his favorite scenes out of order, and then stitches them together. That's insane to me. It's like, I, how? That is not something that I could ever understand or recommend to anyone, and yet he's amazing, you know?

But that's his process, and that's okay. It looks different for him, and I'm happy for him, but if someone told me the only way I could write is if I wrote like that, I don't know if I can write.

[00:10:12] Matty: I think that's an extension of exactly what you're saying. If you decide you can only write between 8 and 10 in a dark room with a glass of wine, then it's not only a problem when you run out of wine or your daughter wants to play with you at 8, but being that reliant on ritual probably makes people overreliant on whatever approach they're using at the moment.

So, let's say outlining everything in a Five act structure is what's working for you, and if you allow yourself to get into a rut in your writing schedule, you might also get into a rut, maybe the five-act structure stops serving you, but you don't notice because it's just what you do, and that getting into a rut can link into a lot of other areas of your writer life.

[00:10:56] Rob: Exactly. And that's the thing, it's such a hard thing to do. It's hard to say, "I'm gonna sit down for several hours today and look at a word document and make up funny little people and then make them get into trouble." Because not only is the act itself really difficult, but then the fact that you're gonna do it for months, and then edit it for months, and it may turn out to be all for nothing.

There's no guarantee that it's even going to work. It is this incredible leap of faith. That somehow, someway, the whole thing is going to work out, and I still start off novels like, "I don't know how to write a novel, I don't know how to do this, I can't finish this, what am I doing?"

I've written eight, and I still don't always believe that I have the ability to write a novel. But that's the thing; I'm always trying to remove impediments, not add them. And I think as you add impediments, it just makes it that much harder.

[00:11:51] Matty: Yeah, I never know whether it's heartening or disheartening for baby authors to hear that even very experienced authors like yourself still face that. I guess it's good to know you have company.

[00:12:03] Rob: I mean, I would hope that it's encouraging, just to luxuriate in this feeling, because it's never going to get better. In fact, it's probably going to...

[00:12:11] Matty: Because god forbid you do a good job, then someone's going to expect you to do it again.

Yes. These things unto themselves could be whole podcast episode discussions, plumbing the depths of these kinds of questions.

Edit Backwards

[00:12:24] Matty: The third point you talked about in your source code of storytelling was doing a backwards editorial pass. So talk a little bit about that.

[00:12:33] Rob: Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to do, and that's one of those things where, like I always say, I keep on saying it, nothing I say is a rule, but this is one of those things that I say to people, and I think it's resonated with a lot of people that I've shared it with, is that I always edit my books backwards at least once.

Usually, as I'm nearing the end, when I know that I'm almost done, I will go in and start with the last chapter and then just start working my way forward to the beginning, and it does a couple of things. It helps to see the book out of order, because sometimes you might clock things about the flow or the narrative structure that weren't really working, but more importantly what I think it does is it infuses a lot of fresh energy into the ending.

Because my experience as a freelance editor has been that I've seen people have given me books that I see, so much time and so much effort has gone into the beginning of the story, and then you can tell by the end, they were just like, "I just want to be done. I am finished." You know, and things kind of peter out, and you lose some of that energy.

You get that "I want to be done" energy. And I think taking that sort of like beginning energy and really letting it sit in the ending is something that could be really useful. And it's always useful for me because whenever I do it, I sit there with my last chapter and I'm like, "Man, looking at it just out of sequence with a fresh set of eyes."

I'm like, "Yeah, I get it. I get it. This is not working. And this is why—it's because I want it to be done."

[00:13:54] Matty: Have you ever written the last chapter first?

[00:13:58] Rob: Oh God, no. I very much write in linear sequence and that's the best way for me. I always know, mostly what my ending is going to be, if not in specifics, then at least in spirit. You know, I don't know that I could ever write a story without understanding where I was going because if I was just sort of like writing, then I would write forever and would never stop.

But yeah, it's usually my endings, I feel like, are pretty close to where they always.

[00:14:28] Matty: You had talked about the, sometimes the energy has become, "I just want to get this done" energy. Are there red flags you look out for when you're reading that ending, or tips you have for people if they try this out and they experience that but they don't know how to fix it?

[00:14:46] Rob: That's a good question. I always try to take each section that I'm working on, whether it be a chapter or a larger section of the book, and try to view it completely in isolation, almost like it's its own little island, you know? I'm still considering the rest of the story and how it plays out, but I'm most focused on what this one particular scene means, what needs to happen here, am I accomplishing that, am I getting across the point that I want to make, are the characters doing what they need to do. It's isolation, it's trying to view these things in isolation, almost like you would consider an episodic season of television.

Thank you. Where, you know, you've got an episode that keys into a broader story, but it's still telling a very specific narrative that's confined to 30 to 45 minutes or whatever. And when I think of it in terms like that, it's easier to kind of look at that and say, "Okay, the only thing that matters right now is this scene. These two characters in this cafe having this conversation. Am I accomplishing what I set out to accomplish when I put it here in the first place?"

[00:15:51] Matty: Yeah, I really like that. I really like the analogy of having it be like assessing a TV series. That's very cool.

The villain as the protagonist

[00:15:57] Matty: So I'm going to move on to the fourth point you made that I called out, which is, pose the villain as the protagonist. And I don't know if this is what you intended there, but the way I saw this play out, and if listeners are bored with hearing this story, just fast forward like one minute.

So I had to write a novella between my third and fourth Lizzie Ballard thriller, because the chronology was such that whatever happened to Lizzie Ballard, the protagonist, could happen days, weeks, even months after the end of book three. But the thing that was going to happen to the antagonist next was going to happen literally seconds after the end of book three, and I kind of left it hanging there because it's a cliffhanger, it's a series I wanted people to read on, and then when I started working on book four I realized that accommodating this disconnect in the chronologies meant that like the first five chapters of the fourth book were about the antagonist, which isn't really what I wanted so I ended up writing a novella.

And I'm really kind of perplexed about how to market it because it's definitely for the people who read book three, they're getting on to book four, and they, they need that bridge. And it's for me because I love my antagonist. And certainly, in that book, the antagonist of book three is the protagonist of the novella.

So that's the example I came to this tip with. And can you talk about what you intended for people to take from that tip?

[00:17:17] Rob: Sure, sure. That's a really cool idea that you did that. I really dig that. Yeah, I mean, it's always important to remember that no one wakes up and says, "I'm going to do evil today." You know, even people that we might, as a larger society, perceive as bad, a lot of them wake up and say, "I'm gonna do the thing that is best for me today, or I'm going to do the thing that only I can do because only I am right and everyone else is wrong."

The villain is the hero of their own story

[00:17:41] Rob: This idea of sort of like pure evil that does evil for its own sake is sort of... You know, it's more of, I don't want to say it's kind of childish, but it's you know, this idea of, "Oh, there's a devil and the devil just does evil." That's not what a real villain is.

A real villain is someone who has depth and drive and reason and ambition. They're just like your protagonists. They're just on the other side of the coin. Yeah. You know, I tend to use Marvel movies a lot when I'm using examples, because a lot of people have seen them, so it's really easy to do it.

But I think Thanos, in the Infinity War movies, is the most perfect example. Here's a guy who looks at the universe and says, "We're struggling to feed people, we're running out of resources. So I'm gonna find this magical device that's gonna wipe out half of humanity. I mean, half of life in the entire universe."

And then there's going to be more resources to go around, which, you know, on one hand seems dumb, right? Because why not make more resources if you've got a magic device that will do literally anything? But it actually makes sense for his character, because Thanos is a warrior, that's what he does.

He was literally born in blood and has never known anything but strife and conflict and battle. So of course, a character like that, the first thing he's going to go to is the bloody option. Not the compassionate option. So, it was a decision that was informed by his character, and the thing that Infinity War did so well is you saw that weight that he was carrying.

[00:19:44] Matty: Yeah, one of my favorite scenes to write in that novella was a scene where the antagonist of the first three books, whose name is Louise, she finds one of the other good guy characters tied up, and he's been tied up for a long time, and he's been injured, so she helps dress his wounds, and she unties him so he can use the restroom, and then she ties him back up again, and he asks, "Well, why did you do that?"

And she says, "Well, because it doesn't serve any purpose not to do it," and I thought, I enjoyed that as an encapsulation of her reasoning, because she does the bad things she does because she thinks it's like killing half the people in the galaxy. It's the way she knows, it's the tool in her toolbox that she knows how to deploy to pursue what she sees as unselfish ends.

But then she doesn't do things to be intentionally cruel. You know, she's a good person when it serves her and needs to be a good person. She's a bad person when it serves her and needs to be a bad person. And I do wish I could just sit with readers as they read that novella and have them have a little dial that says, "I like her more, I like her less," and see if it hits where I expect it to.

Have you ever had that experience of trying to understand how a reader is reacting to a character that's in that sort of tricky moral area?

[00:20:59] Rob: You know, I've had people make straight comments to me where they'll say, "Oh, I hate that this character did this," or "Oh, I love that this character did this." One of my favorite insights I ever got was from my agent's assistant when he first read "The Warehouse," because "The Warehouse" is about a company that's basically Amazon that takes over the American economy, and so there are three characters in the book, and two are people who work in one of these warehouse facilities, and one is the CEO. So he's like a trillionaire Jeff Bezos type, super evil, super not cool.

But he starts off, because again, he's the hero of the story, he's the hero of his story. You know, he's the one who came in and like saved the planet by, you know, reducing commute times because he built live-work facilities and because he, you know, took all these sort of outdated models and updated them, but in a way that just happened to make him richer. And I patterned him after Sam Walton, who founded Walmart, because, you know, that guy's autobiography is nefarious. This is a guy who did a lot of bad things, a lot, a lot of bad things that reshaped the economy for the worse, and he has such a kind and warm voice, and he's always talking about family, family, family, and it's like, "Man, your company used to lock workers in the store at night, that's not how you treat your family."

And, you know, anyway, the main character of Cloud, Gibson Wells, who runs this company, you know, he starts off like that as like this sort of like down-home Arkansas guy that you kind of want to love. And my agent's assistant was like, "Oh man, I was hoping he would be good."

[00:23:01] Matty: Yeah, those characters are super fun to write and they're super fun to read. I love reading those characters in other people's books.

The come-from-behind save

[00:23:08] Matty: So the fifth point that we called out here was, don't count out the Riders of Rohan. What's behind that?

[00:23:13] Rob: That's one of my favorite ones. In the "Lord of the Rings" movies, and "The Two Towers", when they're at Helm's Deep, and it's like, oh, they're screwed, and then the Riders of Rohan show up with Gandalf at the top of the hill, and then they ride down, and they kill all the orcs. And that does a couple of things that are really important. First, you do have a real visceral feeling that they're gonna lose at that point.

Because they are completely outnumbered, they're completely screwed, and they basically say to each other "We're dead. We're just gonna go down fighting." So right there you're creating a good amount of drama, and then when you have that come-from-behind save, I think that's really important because it just, it kind of reminds us that we're not alone, and that we can get help if we ask for it, and that people will back us up if we need them to.

It gives us a greater sense of community, which is what I think we read books for. We read them because we don't want to feel so alone, and that's why I think it's always such a powerful moment, and it doesn't need to be this big, sweeping battle scene for it to be a come-from-behind save. Like, I call it the Riders of Rohan moment just because it's funny, but it's really that come-from-behind save that you need.

And I've got in "Paradox Hotel", like I've got this little tiny scene where this one character just, you know, gives this other character a little nudge. And it's like, "I got you." And that's it. That's exactly what that is. It's the same thing, just on a much, much smaller scale. And it's because I think we kind of crave those moments of not feeling alone.

And that's why those moments are so, so powerful. And when they are done well, they are incredibly memorable. And again, that's why I go to "The Two Towers", because that is just, I mean, out of all three movies, that might be my favorite scene.

[00:24:53] Matty: Yeah, the scene that reminds me of, I think it's in "Band of Brothers", but there's a scene where they're in the trenches, and you know, the Germans are coming and then the tanks come over the hill, you know, right when they're just about to be overrun, same exact kind of thing, you get all chipped up watching that happen.

But yeah, I think it's trickier when you're trying to do it on that more subtle, non-majestic level, like you were describing, just that little moment, not people sweeping over a hill.

[00:25:23] Rob: Yeah, it's definitely a little bit more challenging because you're sort of losing that bombast, and that big sort of frenzy. But I think that if you can find those moments when characters can just step up for each other and show support for each other, I think those always really resonate with people.

Write an outline, then throw it out

[00:25:43] Matty: So we're going to move on to the sixth of the points that I pulled out of your presentation, which was write an outline and then throw it out.

[00:25:52] Rob: I was explaining this to someone recently, so this is going back to what I said about adapting things for your own process. I have this buddy, John Gingrich, who's a brilliant short story writer. And he will write a short story, and then he'll delete it.

And then a couple of days later, he'll rewrite it from memory, and to me, that's insane. I'm never gonna do that with a short story, because it's like nah, I can't delete that many words. But the reason he does it is kind of brilliant. He's like, "You know, I always remember all the good stuff. I always forget all the bad stuff, and the time in between, you know, things that I've been trying to figure out will crystallize and solidify."

And I thought there was a lot of wisdom to that. So I started doing that with my outlines, because I really like to have a pretty solid outline going into a book. It helps me sort of move through it a little bit more quickly. And I found that, you know, that first outline is kind of a mess. It's like there are parts there that I know are important, but there's a lot of just like fat there that's not really resonating for the story or there are parts that are missing or there are connections that are not making sense.

It's like I know I've got characters here and I gotta get them there and I have no idea how I'm gonna do it, so I'll just look at it and get mad and I'll delete it. And then a couple of days later I will sit down and I'll do it again and I realized as I was doing this that it would get more streamlined and it would make more sense.

Because I had had time to think about it. And it's true, like, the really good stuff you don't forget about. It's always gonna be there in your head. It's just the sort of, the fuzzier stuff starts to fall away. So, I'll do it, two, three, four times, and find that by the fourth time, the outline actually looks pretty solid.

And I think it serves a dual purpose, it helps you to not be so precious about the words. Because, again, they're gonna be there, they're inside you, you have them all. There's only so many words we know them all, we just have to put them in the right order. And so, if we can sort of come to this place of understanding that, like, hey, you know, just because I put it down on the page doesn't mean that I need to keep it.

It's a good and it's a healthy thing, you know, because I've certainly been at points where I've written something and I'm like, "Man, I love this so much, I don't want to delete it, and I have to delete it, I know I have to delete it." It's that kill your darlings thing, it's you know, just because you love something doesn't mean it works for the story. And I think this is an exercise that kind of helps make that whole process a little bit easier.

[00:28:12] Matty: I can imagine that a, like training wheels version of this, if actually deleting the word sounds alarming to people as it does to me. And I think in part because I'm a person who, like actually typing out the words is kind of the last part of the process for me. Like I'm mulling it over in my head.

And so I feel like I'm doing some of that deletion mentally. But I think a baby step could be, don't necessarily feel like if you're at the grocery store or out walking your dog or just out and about and you have an idea, you necessarily have to grab it in your note-taking app, because those are the things that I find that, I might have seven seemingly brilliant ideas while I'm walking the dog, and when I get home I've forgotten five of them.

But there's a reason I've forgotten five of them, and the two that are left are the ones that I can work on. So that could be like step one if people are kind of intrigued, but they're a little scared about the actual deletion of words idea.

[00:29:00] Rob: I like that, I like that, because I do that all the time, where I have Google Docs on the home screen of my phone, and I have a different file for everything that I'm working on. And then I will do that all the time. I'll just pick up my phone and start jotting down notes on something because something struck me.

But yeah, it's, and then sometimes I look back at them and I'm like, half of this is nonsense. I didn't need to write this down. Or like, my favorite is when I take a note and I'm like, oh, I should do this in the story, and I go back to the story and it's already there. And I'm like, man, writing books This whole process is, you do it in, a fugue state. It's ridiculous.

[00:29:34] Matty: Yeah, sometimes people will ask me if I get ideas in the middle of the night, and if I do, if I write them down and I'm like, oh no, no, that would be awful. I wouldn't want to see the results of what I would write down if I captured the things I thought about in the middle of the night.

[00:29:47] Rob: Every now and again, every now and again I get a good one. I was watching Kung Fu Panda with my daughter the other day, and there was something in the story of that movie that, kind of, crystallized a point for me. I'm writing the Assassin's Anonymous sequel now. and it was, like, an idea that I sort of, have been circling around, and I just needed it to be crystallized for me.

And watching Kung Fu Panda, I was like, Oh. Oh. That's what I'm supposed to do, so I'm just sitting there on the couch with her, just taking down notes.

[00:30:13] Matty: Well, I love the idea of wrapping up our conversation at the point where we have now gone from Rashomon to Kung Fu Panda.

[00:30:20] Rob: There we go. Can I contain multiple things?

[00:30:23] Matty: So Rob, thank you so much. I enjoyed your presentation at Writer's Digest so much, and I appreciate you encapsulating, six of your ideas here for the podcast listeners. So please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.

[00:30:34] Rob: Sure, my website is robwhart. com, I am on, Instagram and threads at robwhart1. I still kinda use Twitter at robwhart, but mostly, for promo stuff, that's a dumpster fire of a site that I'm trying to get away from, but the website is always a good place to start.

[00:30:51] Matty: Thank you so much.

[00:30:53] Rob: Alright, thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Matty Dalrymple 4/16/24 Matty Dalrymple 4/16/24

Episode 234 - The Pocket Guide to Pantsing with Michael La Ronn

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Michael La Ronn discusses THE POCKET GUIDE TO PANTSING, including honoring what your brain is trying to do; retrospective outlining for pantsers; cycling through your story; meeting the characters where they are; surprising the reader (and yourself); the challenge of writing into the dark across a series; using AI to create a story bible (but how spreadsheets still work better than AI); differentiating fear from anxiety; and giving yourself permission to trust yourself. You can also listen to me talk myself into the viability of using pantsing for mysteries.

Michael La Ronn is the author of over forty science fiction & fantasy novels and self-help books for writers. He runs the popular YouTube channel Author Level Up and serves on the staff of the Alliance of Independent Authors as a US Ambassador, and he also co-hosts the AskALLi Member Q&A Podcast.

Episode Links

www.authorlevelup.com
www.youtube.com/authorlevelup
www.facebook.com/authorlevelup
The audiobook of Michael's THE POCKET GUIDE TO PANTSING is on YouTube for free here!

Summary

This conversation between Matty Dalrymple and Michael La Ronn about the pros and cons of "pantsing", also known as writing a novel without an outline. Michael is an advocate of pantsing, while Matty takes a more structured approach to novel writing.

Michael explains his pantsing process, which involves starting with just a basic idea for the first scene, then continuously writing 500-2,000 word chunks before going back to revise what was just written to check consistency and resonance. He essentially writes the novel in multiple passes while moving forward. This helps honor where his brain naturally wants to take the story. When he gets to around 75% done, he usually has a "glimmer" where he clearly sees how the story will end.

They discuss how some genres like historical fiction or hard sci-fi are much harder to pants, since more research is required. Michael argues that pantsing helps him get deeper into his characters' heads and emotions. Matty counters that plotting lets you shape the character arc more. They agree both approaches are valid depending on personal preference and genre; sometimes a hybrid approach works too.

Michael emphasizes meeting the characters "where they are", while Matty focuses on shaping the arc from point A to B. Matty also uses a frame or outline to give a sense of the overarching plot across a whole series of books, while allowing room for exploration. She sees both strengths and weaknesses to each approach.

They explore Michael's strategy of creating a "retrospective outline" while pantsing, by writing down high level chapter summaries, descriptions, key details to remember later. This helps when referencing back, especially for consistency across a series. Matty also keeps notes but relies more on searchable PDFs of previous books.

They discuss using AI to create story bibles summarizing key facts across a series, but the technology does not work well yet due to hallucination issues and ingesting large amounts of text. Manual spreadsheets capture key details better for now.

Overall the discussion explores pantsing as a viable alternative to outlining for some authors, with its own pros and cons. Trusting oneself and overcoming fear/anxiety of the unknown are critical to succeed. It offers efficiency but requires continuously cycling back to keep consistency. The approach resonates most with authors who wish to follow their subconscious creative voice.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to "The Indie Author Podcast." Today my guest is Michael La Ronn. Hey Michael, how are you doing?

[00:00:06] Michael: I'm great, Matty. It's always good to be back.

[00:00:08] Matty: Always lovely to have you here as, I believe, one of the most frequent guests on "The Indie Author Podcast." And since you've been on the podcast so many times, I can't imagine that I need to provide an introduction, but I'm just going to say that if our viewers or listeners haven't yet delved into all the resources you offer to your fellow indie authors, I highly recommend that they check out AuthorLevelUp.com and AuthorLevelUp on YouTube. And you can also look through all my past conversations with Michael to hear a more extensive intro if necessary. So I had invited Michael on the podcast to discuss "The Pocket Guide to Pantsing," because I saw his lovely article in "Writer's Digest" magazine, and I know Michael has written and spoken extensively on this topic.

And this could almost be one of our "two perspectives on" conversations because you and I have very different approaches to this, but I think that the listeners have heard me talk about the idea of framing up a story, which is a phrase that I like better than outlining, enough. But if they haven't, they can check out my article in "Writer's Digest" about creating a story frame, which is in the July-August 2022 issue, and I'll also mention that article is in the July-August 2023 issue of "Writers Digest" magazine. People can find my article, which is now available publicly, if they go to TheIndyAuthor.com — and that's Indy with a Y — and then click on creating your story frame. And so today, we are really just going to be exploring Michael's advice on pantsing.

[00:01:32] Matty: And so, I know that a lot of people sort of get up in arms a little bit about the term pantsing. How come you describe that as opposed to one of the other terms that people use for the approach you're describing?

[00:01:43] Michael: I purely use pantsing as a marketing ploy. So when you say pantsing, everybody knows what you mean. And so I wrote a book called "The Pocket Guide to Pantsing." It just alliteration; it just worked. But there are some people, particularly across the pond, that don't like that term because pants doesn't mean pants; it means underwear.

[00:02:03] Matty: That's true, I didn't actually think of that.

[00:02:06] Michael: Yeah. So, I've had a few people say that to me and, you know, what, I get it, I understand. It's just a term that everyone uses and everyone understands. You could also use the words discovery writing or exploratory writing. Dean Wesley Smith calls it writing into the dark. There are lots of different terms for it. But ultimately, it's the process of writing a novel without an outline, and with no or very little understanding of what is going to happen before you start writing and while you're writing.

Michael's experience with outlining

[00:02:39] Matty: And have you experimented with both approaches, the more writing-into-the-dark approach and a more structured approach? Have you experimented with a structured approach?

[00:02:49] Michael: Oh, I've done both. I started off as an outliner, so I wrote my first 10 novels with outlines, and I experimented with all sorts of different outlining methods. They're the plot point method, the hero's journey, the three-act structure, snowflake method. I mean, I was a student of all those methods, and I realized that, just me personally, there's nothing wrong with the methods, but I found myself in my mind wandering a lot when I started to write.

Honoring what your brain is trying to do

[00:03:18] Michael: So I started the question like, "If I'm spending all this time outlining, only for my brain to just completely throw it out the window when I start writing, why am I wasting all my time outlining?" And so for me, it became kind of an efficiency play, like, I'm not being efficient with my time or my resources.

And so that's when I started to explore writing into the dark and pantsing out, writing without an outline, as a way to help me become more efficient and also honor what my brain was trying to do when I was writing.

[00:03:48] Matty: I think it would be useful to have you just talk through the creation of a novel from the moment you get the idea, right through, so we can have some context for further conversation about pantsing.

Like, do you do multiple passes when you're done with your writing? How close are you to a final draft? Do you have to step away from it to come back to it later with a fresh perspective? Those kinds of things.

Michael's writing process

[00:04:12] Michael: Yeah, I'll hit it at a high level and then we can go deeper into the different elements if that works. So essentially, it begins with an idea. Every novel I write, I at least know what the first scene is going to be. And that's generally a hero in a setting with some sort of problem.

That's usually all I know. I might see a few scenes throughout the novel, but they're kind of hazy. So I'll sit down, and I'll start writing, and it's kind of like moving a boulder. You just have to start, and I just start writing. I write whatever's on my heart, whatever my subconscious tells me to, and I listen very much to the little voice in my head.

Now, practically, what that looks like is I will write a chapter, go for about 500 to 1,000 words, stop, and then I'll go back, and I'll reread what I wrote, and I'll fill in little details, and then I'll continue. And I'll go another 500 to 2,000 words, stop, go back. That's a process called cycling or looping, where essentially you're writing the novel in multiple drafts, but you're doing it at the same time.

So as I go through the novel, I'm constantly cycling and looping back and rereading what I wrote to make sure that one, it makes sense; two, it's consistent; and three, it's emotionally resonant and engaging. So as I'm writing the novel, I'm constantly going back. And so when I get to the end, I'm done.

Like I'm just finished. And that works because, essentially, energy-wise, it's probably the same as writing multiple drafts, but I'm doing it as I go.

Another thing that I do as I go is I outline my novel as I go. So outliners will outline their novel before they start as a way to help them stay structured.

[00:07:29] Matty:

I outline my novel as I go to help me remember what has happened previously. And then, when I write future books in a series, I can refer to the outline instead of having to reread the book. So my outlines are always 100 percent up to date. Writing without an outline is about just following wherever your brain leads you and sometimes that can take you to some crazy places. You just simply trust the process and trust that you can get the words down, revising as you go and doing it essentially in one draft, but it's not quite one draft. Then, outlining your story as you go as well.

And it is a masterclass in learning how to tame your fear because it is an intensely emotional and intensely intimate process. You're really trusting yourself and trusting yourself to understand the story. It's not for everyone. But for those people for whom it works, when they do it, they can never go back.

And so I've just been trying to be a proponent of that and try to help as many people who have the eyes and the ears to see the method, try it, and unlock their best selves.

[00:07:29] Matty: And I would say, and I invite you to share a different perspective on this if you think, that if someone is using a more structured approach and it's working for them, they should not feel required, as like an exercise, to necessarily try pantsing. Just as someone who's pantsing and having success should not feel morally obligated to try outlining. Do you agree with that or disagree?

Finding the writing approach that fits you like a glove

[00:07:52] Michael: Oh, I agree 100%. I have strong feelings about writing into the dark and outlining because it has done wonders in my life in terms of my own self-confidence, improving my craft, and it has had immeasurable benefits in every area of my writing life, but it's not for everybody. And even though I have strong opinions, I don't think that if you feel comfort in outlining and there's something about that which resonates with your personality, by all means, don't give it up. But there are a lot of people who have bought my book and who have subscribed to my YouTube channel who have felt over the years that they have to outline just because that is kind of the predominant way, and understanding that there is another way to do it has kind of set them free.

It has liberated them. It's helped them step into the truest, best versions of their writing selves. So I just want people to find the version of writing that fits them like a glove. Whether it's outlining, pantsing, or a hybrid, it doesn't matter. I've got a lot of people who reach out to me that do a hybrid of both. Some people switch between both methods when they write novels. It doesn't matter to me. I just want to help people become practitioners if they want to pursue this method.

[00:09:11] Matty: It's interesting that of all the people I've explicitly asked about the pantsing versus plotting question on the podcast, I think all of them have been pantsers. I'm thinking specifically of Hank Phillippi Ryan, Robert Dugoni; those are the only two that are popping into my head, but I just remember because many of them are in the suspense, thriller, mystery genre, and it always surprises me when someone who's writing a mystery doesn't have at least an inkling of who the bad guy is when they start. Now, that might change, but they have an idea.

Cycling through your story

[00:09:47] Matty: But I did want to circle back to cycling to make sure I understand that. So, if you write a thousand-word chapter, let's say, and then the next day, are you reading through the thousand-word chapter, and then you're writing the second thousand-word chapter? I'm making up the numbers, so the numbers aren't important. And then the third day, you're reading through the first two. Am I understanding that correctly?

[00:10:08] Michael: Well, let's just take it in chunks. So you write Chapter One, right? At the end of Chapter One, you go back, and you reread what you wrote and you make simple edits here and there. You might change some things more substantially, and then you move on to Chapter Two. And when you're done with Chapter Two, you go back to the beginning of Chapter Two and reread and revise it.

Now, there could be times when you come across a problem. Let's just say, for example, you introduce a character, and their eyes are blue in Chapter One, and you realize, "Oh, crap, I made them purple in Chapter Three." Well, you could be way further into the novel at that point. Fix problems as they come up. So, when you're done with Chapter One, I guarantee you that is not going to be the last time you go through Chapter One because there are going to be things that come up later in the novel that require you to jump back. And so, another thing that I do as well is when I'm almost done with the novel, I will loop the entire novel.

So, say the novel is going to be 35 chapters. When I'm getting to like Chapter 32, right around the end of the final battle, and I know that I'm about to write the resolution, what I'll do is I'll jump back and I'll reread the whole thing as a final master loop, so that when I get to the end, I really am at the end.

So, cycling, looping, whatever you want to call it, it's just basically you continuously going back into the novel to stay in touch with what you wrote. And you know, that's the thing about writing into the dark: when you start, you have no idea what's going to happen most of the time. Maybe you have a little bit, but it's not very much. As you progress through the novel, you slowly start to see more. It's kind of like shining a flashlight in the dark. Eventually, you can see the whole room, and once you're near the end of the novel, you generally kind of know how it's going to end.

There's usually a moment where, you know, I call it the glimmer. It usually happens sometime around the 75 percent mark where all the lights come on and you just know exactly what's going to happen. And that's a really cool moment because it lets you race toward the end, and it gives you a lot of energy.

[00:12:30] Matty: I think it would be interesting to poll people in different genres about the plotting versus pantsing question because, well, I'll precede this by saying I think everybody at some point does both. Like, I don't think anybody writes an outline and then marches through it and never deviates from it.

A challenge of writing into the dark across a series

[00:12:49] Matty: I don't think most people go into a free writing mindset and finish it, then say, "Oh, okay, I'm going to publish that." Those are too far off the end of the spectrum on either side. An experience I just had: I'm working on the fifth "Lizzie Ballard Thriller." I've had this happen before, and I'm actually not sure whether this is a pro or con on either the plotting or pantsing side, but there was a secondary character who I was concerned would not be appealing to the reader because this character could be seen as competing for the affections of another character against the protagonist. She had a strike against her to begin with, and she was a rule follower. In thrillers, rule followers are intrinsically unappealing because that's not what you go to a thriller for.

I had finished my frame, which was probably 15-20,000 words, and I knew this was a problem. I wasn't going to be able to get through the book with her as two-dimensional and unappealing as she was in the first draft. It was only as I started fleshing things out—after I had finished my frame and was adding more description, dialogue, and other elements—that I realized something she could do that would elevate her in the eyes of the audience and make her a more empathetic and sympathetic character.

I'm glad I didn't stick with the frame until I had answered that question because I don't think I could have without doing the writing, without writing into the dark about that one character. But I also think that with a book that has an overarching plot arc, not only within the book but across the series, I would never feel comfortable not knowing how things work out. To me, it's important that I can look at the arc across all the books and say, at the end of each book, the protagonist has achieved something, and everything in the book has to lead up to that achievement.

The achievement isn't necessarily going to change, but how they get there might. Again, this is not a pro or con; I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just describing my process. I do think that there are some things that are helpful to have at least a high-level sense of where you're going with, for me.

And then some things I'm never going to be able to figure out until I start writing into the dark. And I think that is a strength of outlining, is that you can plan out certain things like where you want your character to begin and where you want them to end. I've always thought about characters, and I really don't think about character arcs that much when I write.

Meeting the characters where they are

[00:15:27] Michael: And again, this is just me sharing my perspectives in response to what you said. I'm far more interested in what the character is doing at any given moment because I think that readers react to that more than they react to an arc. It's a different philosophy. Writing into the dark and pantsing is really about meeting the characters where they are, while outlining is about helping characters get from point A to point B. Both schools are valid, and you could mix and match from both to get better results.

That's one of the things I learned about pantsing when I switched because I've done both. I found that my characters went from point A to point B when I was outlining, but I didn't always do a good job of conveying their emotions or how they responded to things.

When I started writing without an outline, I felt like I got much better at getting into the character's head because it was me in the moment meeting the character where they are, and I think that worked really well. Now, there are some downsides to that because you don't have an arc, necessarily, or an arc that happens is just kind of spontaneous, not really planned out, but that's all I have to say about that.

I think it's an interesting philosophy, and there's no right or wrong way. It's just what works for you.

[00:17:03] Matty: Yeah. Well, I think if people are listening to our conversation and they're resonating with one or the other more, then that's a hint at how their mind works.

[00:17:14] Michael: You did mention the genres. It would be interesting. It's a lot harder to write into the dark with historical fiction or hard science fiction that requires more research. Those are the genres that would be a lot harder to write into the dark. But there are really very few genres where this doesn't work.

Matty talks herself into the viability of using pantsing for mysteries

[00:17:43] Matty: I think one nuance of mystery that makes multiple passes, or at least the second pass, important is that if you're writing into the dark to explore who the bad guy is, I can't imagine how people do this. I've interviewed some very successful mystery authors who pants and don't go back. But I can't imagine not doing it because when I'm writing a mystery, then I go back, once I've confirmed that the person I thought did it really did it, which hasn't always been the case. I've had one book where the bad guy turned out to be someone different than I thought. Then I have to go back and plant those clues for the reader that point them at least equally to the bad guy.

I have a theory about mystery that if you implicate everyone except the person who did it, then astute readers will know who did it because they'll just say, well, they haven't planted any clues about this person, so that must be the person who did it. I think you have to implicate everyone equally, so everyone is equally likely to be the bad guy.

And I think, I mean, I suppose on that theory, you just make sure you're planting clues equally and then you decide which switch you're going to hit at the end. Maybe that's how they go about that.

Surprising yourself ... and the reader

[00:19:03] Michael: Well, that's another core tenet of writing without an outline. Dean Wesley Smith talks a lot about this: if you don't know what's going to happen in your story, then the reader won't either. If you're entertaining yourself, that will be more entertaining and engaging for the readers.

There is a level of misdirection you have to employ when writing a mystery, particularly concerning who killed someone. There are many different techniques you can use without necessarily knowing who did it. I'm not sure whether David Baldacci outlines, but he's adept at incorporating more twists than pretzels in his books. He's a great person to study for techniques to keep you guessing about the killer, which I think could also apply to pantsing.

[00:20:04] Matty: So, it doesn't surprise me that there are mystery writers out there who can do it.

[00:20:09] Michael: Maybe they have an inkling as the story progresses, but perhaps they truly don't know who the killer is when they begin. And, then you can go back and plant the seeds if you need to.

[00:20:20] Matty: I sort of talked myself out of that because, following my theory, which I still believe is true, you have to implicate everyone equally. Then you're implicating everyone equally, and you don't need to know until the end which trail of implications is true and which are false.

[00:20:39] Matty: We'd have to ponder that now.

Retrospective outlining for pantsers

[00:20:41] Matty: I wanted to go back to what you were saying about outlining retrospectively, and could you describe some ways you implement that outline, either while you're writing or perhaps after you've written the book?

[00:20:54] Michael: Yeah, it's helpful at all stages of the process. It helps me concretize my thoughts when I'm writing. You're never going to remember your novel as much as when you're writing it. If you're writing in the moment, you'll know all the details of that chapter intimately, and the further you get from that moment, the harder it becomes to remember.

So, I think of it as an insurance policy. I write down what happens in the chapter at a high level, descriptions of the setting, any character descriptions, and other details I might need to remember later, like an artifact or a particular phrase the character uses.

I do that at the end of every chapter, so later in the book, when I need to refer back, I can just look at the outline and remember, "Okay, the barn was full of hay, there were horses, and there was a lantern on the wall," for whatever reason I need to know that.

Well, I can remember that when I'm in Chapter 35 because I can go back to the outline. What's more important, though, if you're writing a series, is how much you forget from book to book. It's astounding how much I forget, even when I write books back to back.

For instance, I'll finish a novel and then jump into the next one, and suddenly I have a character doing something completely different. Wait a minute, no, that's not right. It's really easy to do. And, you know, the more time that passes between your books, the more of a problem this becomes.

So to me, the outline is really an insurance policy for when you're writing future books. It's just not efficient to have to go back and reread your entire novels every time you need to remember something. It becomes a story bible in a way.

[00:23:18] Matty: Yes, the story Bible idea is one that I'm very interested in. I recently talked with Cara Malone about using AI to help create a story bible. I'll get back to the AI aspect in a moment. I'm trying to offer two perspectives, even though I said I wouldn't. When I finish a draft, the last thing I do is have my computer read the story to me. At that point, I'm picking up on things like duplicated words or errors that a spellchecker or a writing aid might miss. And I'm trying to be more diligent about making those notes then because I know I won't be tweaking any further. God help us.

But I usually have a file on my computer with word files, actually PDFs, of all my books. So 90 percent of the time, if I'm wondering, "Did that tertiary character have a beard or mustache?" I can usually find that with some searching within the document.

Using AI to create a story bible

[00:24:16] Matty: But I had a question come up the other day, and I'm hoping that AI will soon be able to help me with it, if it can't already. I'd like to load all my books into it, then ask the AI, "Did this character ever meet this character in person?" Because there are two very important characters, and I can't remember if in the first four books they ever actually met each other in person. It makes a difference to this one plot point in book five. Are you experimenting at all with AI for story bibles, or does the story bible approach you're describing address that question?

[00:24:54] Michael: Okay, so yes, I have experimented with this. I have experimented with it in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Plus has a feature that allows you to create custom GPTs, and the benefit of custom GPTs is it's like a customized mini version of ChatGPT that you can train by uploading knowledge documents.

So in theory, what you should be able to do is upload manuscripts of all your novels in a series, have that become the training document for ChatGPT, and then you would be able to ask it questions, just like you said. In practice, it does not work right now, and the reason for it is because it hallucinates.

It also has some difficulty ingesting large amounts of text. I mean, it can ingest a PDF, but the longer the text, the more challenging it becomes. It often gives a lot of false positives. I tested this about a month ago, quite extensively with a series I've got that has about seven books right now.

And it didn't give me any results that I liked. There were things that were wrong, things that were not quite right. It made up characters. So, I do think that the architecture is there, and at some point, whether it's GPT-5 or a future version, I do think it will be able to help us create story bibles in exactly the way that you mentioned.

[00:26:28] Michael: In the meantime, I just use a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, and that works because I can filter it by character, I can filter it by scene, and I can find what I'm looking for quickly. The goal is to find something on your outline faster than you can find it in your book, and that just takes practice.

It's ultimately about figuring out what sorts of questions you find yourself asking and making sure that you capture those questions as you're writing.

[00:27:03] Matty: The benefit of that spreadsheet approach, rather than searching within a PDF book by book, is that if you're keeping one big spreadsheet of all your notes about a series, you could say, "Show me all the ways I've described this character's house."

And then you could say, "Oh, yeah, well, in book one, they only ever went into the living room. But then in book two, they had the opportunity to go upstairs." And then I have to remember this part of it; it would be nice to see the development of that over a series as well as within a book, which is what I'm limited to when I'm using the search approach.

[00:27:39] Michael: Yeah, and what I do is write down the key details. So if there's a detail that I think is going to be repeated or that I would like to repeat, those are the ones I write down. And that helps me. You mentioned the house; it's funny because I do the exact same thing. I've got a character in the series I'm writing right now, "The Good Necromancer," where his house is a really important part of the series.

And in every book, he goes into a different area of the house. So I have to remember what rooms he's in, what's in there, and also what he's said about them. You know, because he gives some history and some details about it, because it's a historic home. So things like that are really helpful to keep in your outline.

[00:28:24] Matty: Yeah, I realized that across all my books and short stories, there are a couple of go-to home decor styles that I use, and I try to keep that varied. But I was thinking, when you were talking about the danger of an AI hallucinating when trying to give you story Bible information, I wonder if, at the point where the AI is better at ingesting large quantities of data but is still hallucinating, you could address that by saying, "Let me know if Character A has ever met Character B in person, and show me the text where that happens." And then if you still didn't trust it, you could actually search your master documents for that text to make sure that it hadn't made up the reference text it was giving you.

[00:29:11] Michael: You could, but you know, if you have to still go back into the reference text, then I think you've kind of defeated the purpose.

[00:29:17] Matty: Yeah. Just switching over to a quite different topic, do you pair a word count goal with your pantsing approach?

[00:29:26] Michael: Not really. I tend to write a lot of words. So, most of the time, you know, I don't really care. I'm going to write a couple thousand words a day, most of the time. Usually, at the beginning of a novel, I usually will write less because I'm still exploring, and I like to take my time to establish the setting, the characters, and the stakes and everything like that.

And so, I give myself permission to write fewer words. Usually, it's the first week, I will write fewer words and then, once I feel comfortable and things really start to take off, then I'll start swinging for the fences.

[00:30:08] Matty: Or running for the hills, depending.

[00:30:11] Michael: I love torturing analogies. It's one of my favorite things to do.

[00:30:14] Matty: Well, one of the things I wanted to ask is, if someone is using or experimenting with the pantsing approach, the writing into the dark approach, and now they're in a dark room and they don't know where they're going, and they've panicked, you know, when you get stuck in a pantsing scenario, do you have any recommendations for how people get past that?

[00:30:30] Michael: Yes, I do. And the biggest recommendation is that it is psychological. There is something about writing into the dark that really forces us to look inside ourselves and understand who we really are. And a lot of the problems that people have when they're staring at the blinking cursor in a dark room is that they're afraid. It's fear. And understanding the nature of what fear really is, is something that can set you free.

Differentiating fear from anxiety

[00:31:03] Michael: So, if you don't mind, I'll tell a story. So, have you heard of Gavin De Becker? He's a security consultant who has built his career protecting valuable people.

He wrote a book called "The Gift of Fear." In it, he talks about how fear is actually a biological response that is engineered to save your life.

There's a story he tells about a guy who's surfing and gets attacked by a great white shark. The shark is eating him, and he starts fighting the shark. They say to blind the shark, you know, jam your thumbs in the shark's eyes. He does that and the shark lets him go. But the guy doesn't let go of the shark. The shark starts swimming down into the ocean and he's holding on. Why would you do that, right? He gets to the ocean floor, and something tells him to let go of the shark, and he swims up and lives to tell about it. That is fear. Fear makes you do things that you would not normally do as a way to save your life.

[00:33:26] Michael: Now, there's also anxiety, which presents in much the same way as fear when you're staring at the blinking cursor: your heart rate's going to go up, your blood pressure is going to go up a little bit, your pupils are going to dilate, and you're going to have shallow breathing. But you're not in any danger of being eaten. Fear and anxiety may seem like the same thing, but they are not. He says that anxiety is a response to something that you imagine or that you remember.

So when you're staring at the blinking cursor, you're probably imagining that the story's not going to work, that readers won't like it, imagining all sorts of things that can go wrong that really have no basis in reality. It's just your brain playing tricks on you. And when you understand that, you can make a decision.

[00:33:26] Michael: To stop being afraid of things that you imagine or remember, and it will set you free. Now, I know it's not any consolation because you still don't know what's going to happen in your story, but it's giving yourself permission to trust yourself. That is absolutely critical because we writers are really sensitive and emotional people, and that's why we're able to do what we do. But the downside is that because we're sensitive and emotional, we live inside our heads a lot.

Learning how to stop doing that is, I think, the first key to learning how to write into the dark successfully.

[00:34:04] Matty: So, I'm going to belabor the shark story just a bit to explore a question. That is, I can imagine that somebody does the equivalent of continuing to hold onto the shark even after it dives. They're staring at the blinking cursor, their blood pressure is going up, and they decide to grab the shark by the eyeballs. They start writing whatever pops into their head to get past the block. Then the shark dives, and they hang on. In the sense of continuing to write whatever they've chosen to get past that hump, it carries them through the entire rest of the book. For some, what would be a mind-clearing exercise turns into a path that pulls them into the depths, taking them into more danger.

Do you have any thoughts on how people can identify when they've taken a wrong turn? Are there red flags they should watch out for that suggest they're sticking with an idea too long?

[00:35:38] Michael: Okay, so, you're making an assumption, if I may. You're assuming that the words you write to get out of a corner are bad or are just a writing prompt. That's not always the case. In fact, most of the time, when people have writer's block, they think the words they're writing are really bad.

You know, how do you back up from that? And I think you ultimately, what I think is when you get to a chapter and you're staring at the blinking cursor, often the reason, one of the reasons that can happen is because you went astray somewhere just before where you are. So what I encourage people to do is to look back.

You know, it's sometimes the, on a plane, they say the nearest exit may be behind you. It could be that something you wrote 500 words ago, that's what went off the rails. And maybe you just need to backtrack a little bit, figure out what that is, and then you can go down another path. And I think that's, that's a far more productive way to think about it than thinking about, well, am I completely going down a rabbit hole?

Do I need to blow up the whole novel or that sort of thing? Usually the problems are right there in front of you. You just got to figure out what they are.

[00:37:50] Matty: So cool. Well, Michael, thank you so much for the conversation. It was always super fun to talk to you about almost anything. And you always have such practical advice to offer. So please let the listeners and viewers know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.

[00:38:05] Michael: Yeah, you can find all the things I'm doing at AuthorLevelUp.com. I've got a book called "The Pocket Guide to Pantsing" that covers everything we talked about today. And it's also got their links to my fiction on that website as well.

[00:38:18] Matty: So great. Thank you so much.

[00:38:21] Michael: Thanks, Matty. Always my pleasure.

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On The Indy Author Podcast, we discuss the writing craft, the publishing voyage, and how we can navigate our way to the readers who will love our books. Click the links below for the show notes for episodes since 200, including summaries and transcripts.

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